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H.264 - MPEG 4 / AVC vs. AVCHD?

H.264 - MPEG 4 / AVC vs. AVCHD?



Frage von GM:
Oktober 2008

Hello,

've searched, but this only vague statements found:

Would like to see a multimedia player to buy, not always to use DVD to go after the film cutting.

Now there are probably some players used in the specification indicate H.264 - MPEG 4 / AVC files play it - does that mean, sure the AVCHD files can be played? Why will not the same wrote that AVCHD can be played?

Or just go but not because the one from the other differs in details.

lg, Gunther



Antwort von Meggs:

H.264 - MPEG 4 / AVC is the compression standard that is still nothing about the size / Resolutiondes picture taken. HD stands for High Definition.
AVCHD is so compressed AVC-HD.
Often the manufacturer's specifications are amazingly inaccurate. More specifically requesting information, or try out recommended.



Antwort von WoWu:

Caution: AVCHD is not as a common next (registered) trademarks of Sony / Panasonic and does not in all parts of the standard but synonymous proprietäte contains elements that are not of standard decoders should be played.
Major difference is, for example, that the company re-brands into your "non squared pixel introduced, although the standard explicitly only" squared pixel "vorschreibet. This finding again AVCHD interpolations in place to achieve the full Resolutionzu. This is not supported in the standard.
In addition, the companies of AVCHD only as a (very small) subset of the entire MPEG4 H.264/AVC standards.
AVCHD can be long is not what the standard allows.
So if you have a device that is supporting MPEG4 -H.264/AVC, the b essere device.





Antwort von GM:

Hello Wolfgang, Meggen,

Thank you for your answers. AVCHD If only a "subset" of Mpeg4 AVC, then it should be with such a player actually hinhauen, such as Wolfgang writes - it's just funny, because every marketing person probably instantly on the packaging of such an AVCHD player would write, if he it could be (to buyers is probably familiar as H.264 - MPEG4 / AVC).

The best is probably really try.

lg, Gunther



Antwort von Meggs:

"WoWu" wrote:

So if you have a device that is supporting MPEG4 -H.264/AVC, the b essere device.


Beware of information supplied by the Manufacturer of multimedia players. There were, for example devices which support DivX, but only in a Resolutionvon 240 x 360 pixels.



Antwort von WoWu:

Each of the standard MPEG4 H.264/AVC decoder must decode each stream standard, regardless of the bandwidth ... synonymous AVC-I must be of a standard decoder supports.
Only a compliant decoder must of course be no "non squared!" Pixels or proprietary format support.
In addition, DiVX is no standard format and from an early draft was created, Microsoft has developed proprietät to VC1, so very little with the MPEG4 H.264/AVC to do.

@ Gunther
The trick is just that AVCHD a registered trademark and is not so readily be used, just because things have inserted Manufacturer (this comic Interpolationsformat), which also deviates from the standard.
So their (own) format is not supported and the name synonymous usage license can not, must not use AVCHD synonymous.
AVCHD is a sham.



Antwort von Meggs:

I think Gunther gings primarily a question of whether the offered player plays AVCHD. Since AVCHD, as you say, proprietary elements, in which he deviates from the standard, AVCHD is not logically a subset of AVC. Practically this means then: it must not necessarily play AVCHD. Or am I mistaken there?



Antwort von jazzy_d:

Take a PopcornHour A100 or A110.

The plays, so to speak, everything. In my eyes is still the best price-performance ratio.

My A110 is already underway :-)
Must be one of my A100 still verhöckern.



Antwort von Marco:

"So if you have a device, the MPEG4 -H.264/AVC support, the better device."

But unfortunately only in theory. The practice shows that almost all currently outstanding AVC format in handling almost all current systems as a much more difficult than the currently popular AVCHD variants.

Marco



Antwort von Daigoro:

"GM" wrote:

Would like to see a multimedia player to buy, not always to use DVD to go after the film cutting.


Since I was synonymous times.

My solution:
http://forum.slashcam.de/diy-wohnzimmer-htpc-and-schnitt-pc-lt350-euro-vt62968.html
(with the new Asus T3 barebones 8200er with NVidia chipset even a bit cheaper and smaller).

Plays everything and is without big effort 'Future proof'.



Antwort von WoWu:

@ Meggen
Quote:
AVCHD is not logically a subset of AVC.

That's true of course. It would have read: parts of AVC are a subset of the standards.
To this extent is this really true that not all standard player offered in AVCHD format to play them.

@ Marco
You have quite obviously synonymous ... it is unfortunately the case that, of course, most NLE Manufacturer first s.dem based on what is currently s.Markt.
Only wish we all not 4:2:0 and 1440x1080 stay and fortunately, the standard yes upwards everything up to a Gbit open, as opposed to AVCHD, which is 24 Mbit / s makes the Scots tight.

To summarize: the standard can do anything that makes AVCHD, except the proprietary pixel and the HD trimmed to 4:3 format, it can be just as opposed to AVCHD whole lot more.

If you watch the way, synonymous times what codecs currently support the tool, you can see some interesting synonymous differences between the different codecs. Interestingly, the Quick s.wenigsten currently home of all currently available codecs. Interesting cuts are synonymous x264 from .... versions molt .. if there is only a reasonable GUI drau would.



Antwort von Marco:

Yes, except with Panasonic P2 based on its AVC-I is as yet hardly anyone in the corridors came. Schade.

Marco



Antwort von WoWu:

I'm quite sure there are some very fast now in the stockings.
AMD moves now with his "Shanghai" for now synonymous the world, not all costs and its architecture tailored for the video application.
Daigoro has parallel his experience with hardware support posted:
http://forum.slashcam.de/diy-wohnzimmer-htpc-and-schnitt-pc-lt350-euro-vp317799.html?sid=9f478570cbcfc8f8d1ec1c1919a0da46#317799
This is the topic of DSP now probably arrived during the normal consumer.
Now I have the good fortune to have a while based on HW to be able to work and can only say that if you are finally not ruckende images, but on subtleties in the movement concentrate resolution can make the correct codec synonymous fun.
For the NLE manufacturer is now easier ... for the camera manufacturer more difficult now because there are hardly more excuses ... and if you ask me, is synonymous in the AVCHD Compromise parts, soon to be a theme of yesterday.
I do not want to re-estimate, last year I wrote a few months also located, but it takes at again until the issue is no longer so controversial is discussed, as before.
Good times ...



Antwort von GM:

Daigoro, Megger, Wolfgang,

Thank you for your great answers. 've Learned a lot again. I found the suggestion synonymous herself a small PC zusammenzubasteln very good - I'm just not sure if I should because drübertrauen (I've never been busy with HW - the thing is to simply do what I need).

Another small question: what is because of Blue Ray disk? Which files (including extensions) since come into being? Many players can be yes or ISO VOB's play (for the standard DVD).

Again Thank you, my first question was here in the forum, have fun.

lg, Gunther



Antwort von Daigoro:

"GM" wrote:

Thank you for your great answers. 've Learned a lot again. I found the suggestion synonymous herself a small PC zusammenzubasteln very good - I'm just not sure if I should because drübertrauen (I've never been busy with HW - the thing is to simply do what I need).


Can you imagine synonymous with many shops for a small extra charge assemble / preconfigure leave (eg ATELCO or Alternate).

As a pure player is synonymous to the Popcorn Hour is not a bad choice at the moment (the DvicO Twix or returned to the states should be synonymous ok) - but as I said, with a small PC, you are simply more flexible (BluRay ROM / burner retrofit, times when it's cheaper is DVB-S / C card installed and you hast nen Harddisk recorder etc.
The cheaper player <$ 200 (even if there somewhere "HD ready" it is) but are usually not bad choice.



Antwort von GM:

Hello Daigoro,

has a little time, but now I have a PC so synonymous in the living room (as of you described, with AMD X2 4400 +, 8200er NVIDIA chipset, 2GB RAM, Vista Home Premium), and play movies s.einen Panasonic plasma (initially via VGA).

What surprised me is that (at least via VGA port, HDMI, I must still try, but really nothing should change) and H264 as synonymous original AVCHD files are extremely distorted and choppy play (I'm using the latest VLC player). Gehts short (about 2 seconds), then really bad again. Apparently it's all about the processor (busy, about 70 - 80%).

About the quality of normal SD Shooting (interlaced), I am not thrilled synonymous - in VLC you can use different options for hardware deinterlace setting, but all are not satisfactory (of my old DVD player via scart, I have played a better picture).

Hence my questions:
(1) someone knows how to use the VLC Player hardware acceleration (ie the graphics card uses) setting - which may anyway?

(2) If no, how do I use the Windows Media Center (or Windows Media Player) so fit that you (s.hardwarebeschleunigung can use and (b) is synonymous codecs like H264 or AVCHD can play? (C) can be synonymous in the Media Center player other default settings? If yes, how?

(3) Is it possible via HDMI synonymous interlaced signals to send? My plasma TV is normal SD television images is very nice, since I do not need excessive deinterlace software. I think any event that your PC is only progressive signals come (via VGA ists clear, but via HDMI?).

Are now many questions, hope to receive some answers.

Thanks in advance, Gunther



Antwort von RickyMartini:

With "PowerDVD 8 Ultra" There should be no problems with H.264 files indicate.



Antwort von deti:

"GM" wrote:

Hence my questions:
(1) someone knows how to use the VLC Player hardware acceleration (ie the graphics card uses) setting - which may anyway?

Usually not, unless you have a suitable codec installed on your system. Here you can find under "Other codecs" point "system-the plugins VLC own preference" setting. This is however only the decoding and not the issue. This might be the new, freely available, DivX7-H.264 Codec something to help.

"GM" wrote:

(2) If no, how do I use the Windows Media Center (or Windows Media Player) so fit that you (s.hardwarebeschleunigung can use and (b) is synonymous codecs like H264 or AVCHD can play? (C) can be synonymous in the Media Center player other default settings? If yes, how?

Possibly: DivX7 + Haali Media Splitter and AC3 decoder - but I would not necessarily synonymous here to set Hardware Acceleration.

"GM" wrote:

(3) Is it possible via HDMI synonymous interlaced signals to send? My plasma TV is normal SD television images is very nice, since I do not need excessive deinterlace software. I think any event that your PC is only progressive signals come (via VGA ists clear, but via HDMI?).

Jein: Most graphics cards, which are known to me, just make default 60Hz modes. That is, for example, mode of 1080i60 interlaced of course, but must then be the source media to be synonymous 1080i60 and the player is the picture without scaling synchronously with the refresh rate to the correct field can play. Otherwise, you can see somewhere in the picture holding a line in between the fields is changed and come on top of the typical Kammeffekte on.
A first step is in any case the graphics card at a 50Hz mode to be able to (with Nvidia should at least his style).

Deti



Antwort von RickyMartini:

The VLC is no good for the H.264 playback!
The Picture jerky (not the hardware acceleration is active, despite the check mark) and is an absolute affront!

Check please "Power DVD 8" to get them to convince them that it is NOT s.deiner hardware!

H.264 is IMHO only in the Ultra version available.



Antwort von GM:

Hi Ricky, Deti,

thanks for the reply. Am reassured that the Ricky jerky playback of H264 with VLC confirmed.

Why is that so difficult, HDMI interlaced signals to send is quite annoying. As with all advertise "movie enjoyment" and what I know with the new multimedia PCs, but each 50 ¬ Aldi DVD player can be better ....

Ich werd's mal with PowerDVD 8 attempts to see what liegtz.

lg, Gunther



Antwort von RickyMartini:

With HDMI has nothing to do. I am currently running my notebook TFT s.einem through HDMI. It behaves the same video in VLC, as shown on the LCD of the notebook.

"WinDVD 9" nor can I recommend it because HD material looks so creepy.



Antwort von WoWu:

Quote:
Why is that so difficult, HDMI interlaced signals to send is quite annoying.

Ricky has already said ... "With HDMI it has nothing to do".
HDMI is only a hardware layer ... About the HDMI interface is only a decoded signal, ie virtually the form of a digitized analog signal in the synonymous timing information is transmitted, transferred.
Each Jerkiness to advance in the decoding.



Antwort von deti:

... speaks on the other hand, what actually is a dedicated unit to buy for you that makes you want? There are now a lot of cheap boxes with network interface, mass storage connection, decoders and HDMI outputs.

Sowas saves power, time and nerves.

Deti



Antwort von WoWu:

Quote:
... speaks on the other hand, what actually is a dedicated unit to buy

Nothing .... to the risk that the part no updates and you get to the "lean" and profiles the "lean" level festgeklemmt is until you buy a new device.



Antwort von deti:

"WoWu" wrote:

Nothing .... to the risk that the part no updates and you get to the "lean" and profiles the "lean" level festgeklemmt is until you buy a new device.

You say it: for ~ 250 ¬ cost can be synonymous occasionally buy a new box. A PC costs more, however, requires more power and is synonymous after 2-3 years out.

Deti



Antwort von RickyMartini:

A current notebook with HD should have no problems and if it has HDMI is the most naturally beautiful.

If you have none, would be a Blu-Ray player is not a bad choice. A burner you have to ensure, however, not equal to growth - because DVDs are so often made synonymous.



Antwort von deti:

"RickyMartini" wrote:
The VLC is no good for the H.264 playback!
The Picture jerky (not the hardware acceleration is active, despite the check mark) and is an absolute affront!

That is not exactly true: Please go to http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42328 read.

Deti



Antwort von WoWu:

Deti @

Maybe I have something in the "diagonal reading" of the links above to see it but I read that the decoder in VLC still not really well implemented.
Only go as synonymous for the implementation there is no way around the fact that the OS architecture must play well and as long as both of the Microsoft synonymous as the Apple's of this world is not on the current status will be remain not very many solutions.
It is a 1080p picture with 80MHz certainly no real challenge.
But UX64 has the link so a very nice summary brought .... and the flag pole is so long has not yet been reached, with the relatively simple requirements, which currently provides AVCHD ... So there will be still be room for improvement.



Antwort von RickyMartini:

For me, it is thus still not better.
Without the BQ FullHD-Monitor/TV is very modest (I have just a notebook with 19 "TFT on hand) and lack of deinterlacing, the material (the HF100 MTS) almost inedible.

With "PDVD8 Ultra" it looks much better and still runs this buttery soft.

VLC does a tremendous wealth s.Einstellungen, exactly the right place to be, IMHO is extremely difficult dar.



Antwort von deti:

... it is primarily a question that used the H.264 decoder from ffmpeg project not a fine-grained multithreading supported. However, for some time the distribution of the decoding of slices to different threads is possible. Thus, the decoding efficiency greatly depends on the nature of how the H.264 data stream was encoded.
Basically, the decoder is not as bad as here in the forum is always maintained, especially as the CABAC support has been very well optimized.

Deti



Antwort von deti:

"RickyMartini" wrote:
... deinterlaces is the lack of material (the HF100 MTS) almost inedible.

Then do it the deinterlacer to video / filter / video output filter module "deinterlace" and with the plugin settings to X.

This should actually work very well - if the Motion Estimation based on deinterlacer "X" requires too much computation time, then try "linear".

... here is the video also buttery soft, even under Windows virtualized through Parallels.

Deti



Antwort von RickyMartini:

I must still try next.
In any case, many thanks for the help, deti! :)



Antwort von GM:

Hello everybody,

very interesting posts - had the tip tried with PowerDVD 8 (the trial) - wow, H264 and AVCHD is synonymous buttery soft and with hardware acceleration tuckert the CPU (AM X2 4400 +, 2.3GHz) to incredible 400Mhz, about 15% to one and 25% load on the other core.

The only thing I am still not satisfied with the deinterlacing (because we can "Bob" and all sorts of settings, synonymous hardware ...) - somehow it all may nix. Progressive films come over on the other hand, super.

Interestingly, AVCHD (1080i) much better than deinterlaced H264.

The tips with the VLC, I will still try synonymous.

Since there is still much to learn ...

lg, Gunther



Antwort von Daigoro:

"RickyMartini" wrote:
I must still try next.
In any case, many thanks for the help, deti! :)


Well, that's the downside of DIY solution - we must try and turn rumbauen.
When running the box - why always synonymous - yet absolutely problem-free, synonymous with the VLC player and everything under Windows XP.
And I do not very much material to play h.264've only a few HD trailer (1080p24) aus'm Internet.
Most HDV MPG2 or converted to WMV HD.
I could now synonymous not say why it is that it is running .. Windows version, Drivers, the material that I use.

Quote:
You say it: for ~ 250 ¬ cost can be synonymous occasionally buy a new box. A PC costs more, however, requires more power and is synonymous after 2-3 years out.


So the box that I've assembled has less than 300 euros. Meanwhile, the synonymous cheaper, and if the system is running, there is no reason what with more.
Since a maximum of what can be upgraded. like the DVD-ROM, the drin grad is against a BluRay Rom / burner or second hard drive ne NEN or DVB-S Receiver .. in doppelausfuehrung? Get with the times nem Media Player .. need as equal to 3 additional devices to the same functionality to be achieved.
The trend is always next.



Antwort von deti:

I have now on Windows Vista Cyberlink PowerDVD 8 and tested with VLC in fullscreen playback to 1920x1200 a 16Mbit / s AVCHD file a Canon HF-100 (1920x1080i50, CABAC, 8B8, PicAFF) compared:

On an Intel Core 2 Duo 3.0Ghz (E8400) with Intel G31 chipset + on board VGA, I come to the following results:

PowerDVD 8: hardware acceleration enabled deinterlacer active:
PowerDVD8.exe The process requires about 37% CPU and approximately 360Mbytes RAM.

VLC 0.9.8a: DirectX video output (not "DirectX 3D"), linear deinterlacer active FFmpeg decoder ... Loop filter ... "All":
Vlc.exe The process requires approximately 37% of CPU and RAM 103MBytes approx.

Visually, I can perceive the following differences: The deinterlacer from PowerDVD scaled and half mix (blending), Bob makes vlc with linear interpolation. The result can be seen here in Angang.

Deti



Antwort von Daigoro:

"deti" wrote:

On-board VGA

Which Model? Intel?

"deti" wrote:

PowerDVD 8: hardware acceleration enabled deinterlacer active:
PowerDVD8.exe The process requires about 37% CPU and approximately 360Mbytes RAM.

VLC 0.9.8a: DirectX video output (not "DirectX 3D"), linear deinterlacer active FFmpeg decoder ... Loop filter ... "All":
Vlc.exe The process requires approximately 37% of CPU and RAM 103MBytes approx.


Is that with GPU support?
If the "Hardware acceleration" off, then increase the CPU load?



Antwort von deti:

"Daigoro" wrote:

Which Model? Intel?

Is it because G31: http://www.intel.com/Products/Desktop/Chipsets/G31/G31-overview.htm

"Daigoro" wrote:

Is that with GPU support?
If the "Hardware acceleration" off, then increase the CPU load?

Not that I could say something like this - I think not synonymous, that the GPU will fit. I think the feature has "hardware acceleration" is always selectablly PowerDVD.

Deti



Antwort von Daigoro:

"deti" wrote:

Not that I could say something like this - I think not synonymous, that the GPU will fit.


Theoretically yes, only the Intel solution is not so powerful, like ATI or NVidia.
At least with PowerDVD went with me the CPU load (2.5 GHz Athlonx2) of almost 50 (and s.and s.Ruckeln) to 20-25% when playing back of h.264 material.



Antwort von GM:

Deti Hi,

wow, that looks interesting. As of me next, I was described as synonymous of PowerDVD deinterlacing disappointed (as you well in your example you can see). One can, however, synonymous with the PowerDVD deinterlacing a few variations to try. But everything is not much better.

I will look at the VLC of tricks you try. DirectX will probably just let the user choose "Advanced Settings" in the VLC.

I will report back.

lg, Gunther



Antwort von GM:

Hello s.alle,

yesterday nor tried VLC tricks. Now läufts redundant, but there are already s.and to block artifacts (ie not quite optimal).

However, what has worked very well, the deinterlacing method "X", as of Deti described.

This is really useful and I was at first again with software deinterlacing reconciled, so thank you again for the tip.

lg, Gunther




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