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24p - Filmlook oder nicht ?

24p - film look or not?



Newsmeldung von slashCAM:
März 2008

24p - film look or not? Of rob - 21 Mar 2008 00:59:00
Stefan Sargent makes his anger in relation to 24p and the promises of the industry, so that a "film look" to create, in his blog air. Did something with 24p "film look" to do or not? Sargent answered the question for himself with a no clear and refers to other, more important factors for him in film look ...

This is an auto-generated entry





Antwort von baerenbold:

... Sorry, but the amateurs are to blame but themselves if they are on every stupid slogan for fall in the "Cine", "Hollywood" or "movie-like" found!
24 images / s were a compromise between some liquid flow of movement and still an acceptable film consumption. 50 frames / s would obviously be better, but twice as expensive, and the tape had only half the duration!
Not for nothing has the EBU now in the European HD-TV for 720/50p decided - that is 720 lines at 50 W / s.
24 B / s has nothing to do with film quality to do more with viewing habits, because we now even decades in movies movies in this format to see.
At times and in the silent 16 mm amateur film was made savings due 16 or 18 B / s - hence the quick movements, if these old movies today with 24 or 25 B / s play.
24 B / s were then become necessary for the sound film sound track on the edge style reasonably quality.
Today's systems to 24 or 25 fps limit is as you would digital recordings the noise and crackle of shellac disks mixer to form a 'originial Schallplattenton "to achieve, but that's supposed to be synonymous give it yes ...



Antwort von edgar:

I believe it may already be useful in 24p to turn when you look at the option of a 35mm movie Blowups openly wants (though with PAL DVDs synonymous not to disturb seems that most movies simply run a bit faster and the sound is almost a semitone higher, inasmuch as we should, even in this case with 25p still quite good if you go the opposite effect in buying can take).

But who seriously believes all alone by the frame rate and a few simple gamma curves in the Camera "movie-look" for people to be able to be pretty naive. That was the "movie-look" is missing (which is synonymous always mean you will), usually lacking behind and in front of the camera, and only a small part inside. The average holiday filmmakers could give a Arriflex and the movies look is still not set. But it is ultimately synonymous with the happy illusion that he makes the marketing department.





Antwort von WoWu:

The interesting thing is that most people in 720p25 about the low resolution motion excited but then 24p "film look" to rotate.
Furthermore, it is in the movies never really 24p (optical) where, because the wing panels usually 2 or 3x the Picture artificially to a level 48 or even higher frame rate has been brought.
And I agree, just because such an "abuse" is now on it is purely that of any amateur. Afterwards, he still made of PVC pipe and a projection adapter stuck to his photo lens to then blurred images and the "legendary" film look to look.

But the mass of users to justify the existence already.
There is nowhere so synonymous that the images will be better.
They are just different ... and who's mag? Perhaps it is simply a sporty look and are "nostalgic image design" call.
With film, there is really little to do. But it is just a new Marketing-Gag, which the companies have since found.



Antwort von DeeZiD:

I hope so much that nobody s.diesem 720p 50p "HD" standard will hold.

Pro7 was 1080i, so interlaced sent. Only series and movies have been - what the HD logo wore in real 1080p 25p interlaced in a container sent. The quality was high and solitary sport / show broadcasts had continued its 50 pictures. Unfortunately, the company was shortly after my arrival 910er Kathrein receiver set. : (

Gruß Dennis



Antwort von WoWu:

404ERR



Antwort von Prinzeisenherz:

Hi folks,

I know, silly question, but how do you actually in the article about the film look? Your responses sound interesting, but I can not access full article.

On the Home draufgeklickt I only come to a different page, also at the just the beginning of the article.

Gruß,

Wolf



Antwort von Wiro:

"Prince Valiant" wrote:
... to another page, on which also only the beginning of the article is

Well, then simply click on "more information".
Life can be very complicated ....
Greeting Wiro



Antwort von ich33:

you can here the statements regarding 24p synonymous analogous to the 25p mode of European HV20 apply? So that it is practically useless?



Antwort von WoWu:

if you think about my speech, of course, which differ in 24 and 25 frames, if not in movies with 24 frames / sec is used.
The only reason that I can see, with 24p to work is that it almost every other format, with relatively simple tools can derive or transform.
But the one difference now Picture the "film look" is to represent, I do not want to tap into.
Only in the cameras so synonymous heard another gamma curve to ... But the thread as already being made ... that alone makes so far no film look out.



Antwort von HeikoS:

"WoWu" wrote:
if you think about my speech, of course, which differ in 24 and 25 frames, if not in movies with 24 frames / sec is used.


The number of motion phases per second, perhaps? The wings break through the aperture but only serves to prevent the flicker. The Picture impression remains. Or what will change in the "feeling" with you when you get a 25p film about a 50Hz or 100Hz LCD anschaust tube? The motion artifacts remain identical.

Nevertheless, würd ich mal synonymous argue that the difference is 24p to 25p is not noticeable, but probably to 30p.



Antwort von Schleichmichel:

"WoWu" wrote:
The interesting thing is that most people in 720p25 about the low resolution motion excited but then 24p "film look" to rotate.


This is more probably, because the shutter speed is not as film cameras in 1/48s (1/50s or) is, but actually (in 25p mode) with 1/25s exposure time record. Then there is no interruption, with film cameras because of the film transport arises. This Bewegungsunschärfen are synonymous to me, however, too strong.



Antwort von HeikoS:

I find such statements generally unhelpful. Who says that there are the same people? Also, I wonder how the "most" kommst. Can you somehow show?
"WoWu" wrote:
The interesting thing is that most people in 720p25 about the low resolution motion excited but then 24p "film look" to rotate.




Antwort von Axel:

All of these "but" against 25p, respectively. 24p are justified. There is no added value due to the reduced resolution motion s.sich.

And if 1/25tel with 25p or 24p with shutter 1/24tel hand, this mode is completely useless. Is that in the HV20 / HV30 so?

I've been about three years 25p fan since I had the opportunity to take pictures with the Panasonic DVX 100 sub in parallel in the same conditions, 25p and 50i to compare. Immediately, on which output device you compare, "p" produces images similar to those that I s.meinem day job (movies) to see closer. The alleged advantage of the cinema projection, the images to double or triple (Mehrflügelige Aperture, according to 48 Hz or 72 Hz) is determined by the redundant information and the flickering through the darkness breaks destroyed. It is not the impression of a more fluid movement, but the flickering is reduced subjective (comparable to a 100 Hz tubular device, which only produces a quieter Picture).

The disadvantage of the much lamented Jerkiness (p) must be obtained by a steady camera work into account. In fact, a too rapid panoramic swivel in 25p while catastrophic in 50i but no better Deut. A moving subject tracking, (synonymous and just a very fast) swing frames in this isolated from its environment better than in fields where there is more to Kammartefakten comes, the faster the movement. So, good camera work for both methods the same.

From these observations follows in a direct comparison that unmoving at 50i or slowly moving subjects in little or no representation of 25p is different in fast movements, but as a whole creates more disadvantages.

The only advantage of the interlace method, movement of liquid to show prejudice only for fast movements and simultaneously static Camera (Sports Report).



Antwort von sas_hh:

"WoWu" wrote:
if you think about my speech, of course, which differ in 24 and 25 frames, if not in movies with 24 frames / sec is used.
.


So if the statement on the Fremerate the film should be -
Film runs with 24 images ...



Antwort von scream:

http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=6604



Antwort von Axel:

The technical limitations of the traditional cinemas fall. Analog film that here serves as a model, it will in a few years no longer exist.

Maybe it will be synonymous for new movies no 24 B / s anymore. Doubling the frame rate has been used for decades of many calls (one of the leaders is George Lucas) and is useful.

What it does not exist, is that film for a large screen at the interlace method produced. The whole debate is upside down. "i" is an outdated compromise. The movement resolution serves Although twice as many phases, but provides faster display inferiore processes where the entire picture is moving, as in modern shooting, which deserve this name, is the rule. A chase with fast camera movements would not fit representation 50i.

But: A recording of 1/25tel second is for 25 stages far too long. Whether for "p" or "i".



Antwort von WoWu:

@ Sas ... hh

From the "form" that you have so right, only the wing panel brings it to 48 Hz and at three apertures correspondingly higher ... The result are the 24 pictures not something you get to see, quite in contrast to the 24 frames of the video camera, because the image sequence is not 2-3 times interrupted.
So you will not be nearly synonymous the film managed to effect only because it is a number, all in the field of cinema have tried to change it.
And as synonymous not help it for movies to keep ... this is as nothing next to the projector-style home in the 60s.



Antwort von HeikoS:

Wolfgang, somehow hit you for an engineer very spongy and misleading from.

You vortex force recording here (in contrast to the 24 frames of the video camera .. ") and playing ("... only the wing panel puts it in 48Hz ...") confused.
And of course, takes place at all popular media also play a multiple refresh instead. I have here as abgetatstetes Filmaterial with 24B / s that I exactly with 48Hz refresh rate s.meinem Eizo anschauen. And I suppose the material was not a bit different than 25p material tube s.meiner 50Hz or 100 Hz or 50 Hz tube s.meinem Eizo. The interruption of multiple image display really has no effect on the performance except the one who Flimmerreduktion. And the "film effect" the hinterhergejagt is nunmal the Filmjudder that only barely an amateur to master knows.

"WoWu" wrote:
@ Sas ... hh

From the "form" that you have so right, only the wing panel brings it to 48 Hz and at three apertures correspondingly higher ... The result are the 24 pictures not something you get to see, quite in contrast to the 24 frames of the video camera, because the image sequence is not 2-3 times interrupted.
So you will not be nearly synonymous the film managed to effect only because it is a number, all in the field of cinema have tried to change it.
And as synonymous not help it for movies to keep ... this is as nothing next to the projector-style home in the 60s.




Antwort von HeikoS:

"Axel" wrote:
"i" is an outdated compromise. The movement resolution serves Although twice as many phases, but provides faster display inferiore processes where the entire picture is moving, as in modern shooting, which deserve this name, is the rule. A chase with fast camera movements would not fit representation 50i.


Time ne question: What are you looking get the "i" material? On the computer screen? An extremely outdated LCD without adaptive deinterlacer?

This is the only way for me to declare that you are "i" a worse resolution attestierst movement and of Kammartefakten talk. These "Kammartefakte" arise only if the 50i frames than untreated represents. But this is obviously not the case and so can the bad interlace method, be charged.



Antwort von sas_hh:

My comment should in no way synonymous per video to 25p.
That because such qualitative nix can be achieved is clearly yes.



Antwort von Catalyst:

24 or 25 fps have been times so nothing with film look to do, because it is already in the Recording a science in itself was this low frequency as possible in order to conceal the viewers later this shortcoming does not feel it. It was never an end in itself, so to speak, and feature a film per se, but exactly the opposite.



Antwort von WoWu:

@ Heike

I think I bring nothing confused, because it is about perception ... nothing else. And that you're with the EIZO anschaust you like your images and perhaps in doing 100Hz is very nice for you, not everyone does but synonymous and it changes nothing s.Verfahren how they were used in cinemas.
And another thing ... Maybe it escaped your attention that this forum is the place more technical things simpler way. In this respect I do not know what your complaint really for transporting a content should be.



Antwort von WoWu:

"WoWu" wrote:
@ Heike

I think I bring nothing confused, because it is about perception ... nothing else. And that you're with the EIZO anschaust you like your images and perhaps in doing 100Hz is very nice for you, not everyone has this option and it will change s.Verfahren not synonymous, as they were used in cinemas.
And another thing ... Maybe it escaped your attention that this forum is the place more technical things simpler way. In this respect I do not know what your complaint really for transporting a content should be.




Antwort von WoWu:

@ Admin

Double post, please delete the last post.



Antwort von WoWu:

"Anonymous" wrote:
24 or 25 fps have been times so nothing with film look to do, because it is already in the Recording a science in itself was this low frequency as possible in order to conceal the viewers later this shortcoming does not feel it. It was never an end in itself, so to speak, and feature a film per se, but exactly the opposite.


This is precisely the essence of my statement, so therefore synonymous with the question of why such a nonsense as 24p today actually as a film look is offered.
But as we have learned, so can the cinema HeikoS impression immediately understand. So somehow we are given but probably wrong.



Antwort von WoWu:

@ HeikoS

Please allow another after sentence relating to interlaced.

There is a globally recognized expert in the field of format conversion, the filter in most applications stuck.
His statement to the de-interlacing is of himself to the point and I have been thinking, which you can not add:

"I s.amazed that anybody would consider launching new services based on interlace. I have spent all of my life working on conversion from interlace to progressive. Now that I have sold my successful company, I can tell you the truth: interlace to progressive does not work! ".



Antwort von WoWu:

forget the name should be mentioned:

Yves Faroudja



Antwort von Axel:

"HeikoS" wrote:
"Axel" wrote:
A chase with fast camera movements would not fit representation 50i.


Time ne question: What are you looking get the "i" material? On the computer screen? An extremely outdated LCD without adaptive deinterlacer?

This is the only way for me to declare that you are "i" a worse resolution attestierst movement and of Kammartefakten talk. These "Kammartefakte" arise only if the 50i frames than untreated represents. But this is obviously not the case and so can the bad interlace method, be charged.


On this topic, we were already. I realize that modern playback equipment partially deinterlacer with very high quality work and so the negative effects of fields almost unnoticed. That's why I am emphatically not a typical video-related situation, but on fast-paced action, and on "presentation 50i", ie to the native and "outdated" nature, to interlace material.

In my own posting, I try totgelaberten of the film to look away and come to justify why a cinematic camera work both methods shows a different aspect. Please, no misunderstandings. A higher frame rate is better. 50i, however, in certain situations that I have explained above, 25p is not superior. For other situations, it makes no difference for others and would continue to build on 50i.



Antwort von HeikoS:

@ WoWu:

There is no reason here to be polemical. It surprised me very much of a reaction you receive. Factual reasoning seems not to be your strength. Please: Then refute Popper look under my statement. You must but I do not explain scientific principles, is not it?

But unless your claim of you, I have no justifications, whether perception of psychological or physical nature can be read here, which support your statements.

And another thing: I have never claimed that a 24p connection of the birthday of Grandma as a Hollywood production can look like. If you even bother to do that, read through my previous posts, you knew that my position diesbezügl. very clear. And to give you the trouble off again my specific statement: The cost in personnel and technology will decide on the "look" of the product, less the recording medium. I can Arri35 with a film so that it looks like an amateur video recordings and I can with a cheap video camera recordings achieved that are difficult of shooting a movie to be distinguished when I released the scene can be modeled and designed, and in Lighting and Technique the running expenses.

But you argue with an electronic camera never the characteristics of a film emulsion recording imitate you and argumentierst completely confused with the playback (!) Of a film projector, which is to follow your logic would mean that D-cinema from the cinema feeling a living room atmosphere makes. Or have the digital projectors in cinemas synonymous wing panels?



Antwort von HeikoS:

And again:
Please do not ask myself what you are not out of my statements can read!

I am no advocate of interlace in the context of progressive displays. 720p50 me is far better than 1080i25, but if the comparison between 25p and 25i moves, then, that's totally different. Schonmal viewed sport in 25p?
From the interlace signal, I can at least extract the necessary movement phases. And I know not synonymous in the context Faroudjas statement you've made, but I would not know because what does not work. Rename it again. I am quite surprised how well a Interlacesignal now in a progressive may be transferred. What is not working satisfactorily is the conversion of 25p in 25i, but it is no wonder so synonymous ...

"WoWu" wrote:
@ HeikoS

Please allow another after sentence relating to interlaced.

There is a globally recognized expert in the field of format conversion, the filter in most applications stuck.
His statement to the de-interlacing is of himself to the point and I have been thinking, which you can not add:

"I s.amazed that anybody would consider launching new services based on interlace. I have spent all of my life working on conversion from interlace to progressive. Now that I have sold my successful company, I can tell you the truth: interlace to progressive does not work! ".




Antwort von HeikoS:

@ Axel,
Meanwhile I think I know what you wanted to testify. I can agree with parts of synonymous to, ie: The Filmjudder insulated pans at "better", which is as a kind of cinematic exemption "should be interpreted. Only I understand your remarks about Kammartefakte in Interlacesignnal not (especially since your observations as universal for all media playback stand). These are just to see if it is wrong or inadequately treated (in the case of Progress. Displays) and NEVER tubes in the Halbbilddarstellung dominate.

Furthermore, not even the really fast pans the Achilles heel of the recording but 24/25p medium speeds, since the Judds are not covered by the motion blur will be masked. And such movements come very often.

It remains: The Filmjudder is actually a weakness, a display artifact, but one film-making as a tool to use, but it must be mastered, what I most amateurs do not trust.

"Axel" wrote:
In fact, a too rapid panoramic swivel in 25p while catastrophic in 50i but no better Deut. A moving subject tracking, (synonymous and just a very fast) swing frames in this isolated from its environment better than in fields where there is more to Kammartefakten comes, the faster the movement. So, good camera work for both methods the same.

From these observations follows in a direct comparison that unmoving at 50i or slowly moving subjects in little or no representation of 25p is different in fast movements, but as a whole creates more disadvantages.

The only advantage of the interlace method, movement of liquid to show prejudice only for fast movements and simultaneously static Camera (Sports Report).




Antwort von WoWu:

@ HeikoS

Reading and understanding seems to want your thing but not exactly synonymous to be.
It went only to the impression Picture in connection with the film look, with 24 images of the movie presentation in contrast to the video presentation through the use of the aperture in the wings look different.
The case of Dir pixel refresh is exactly the opposite of a wing panel, which deliberately initiates a dark phase, the pixel-refresh but also ensures that no phase is dark.

In addition, you confuse the previously reported with the body of s.dieser you put into the game moves ....
naturally differ in the movement of 24p film of 24p in the video only through the use of different technologies caused artifacts.
But I have so far with no position on ... So what complaints you have?

Estimates relating to your film look are very correct and commendable, but I see no reason, if they synonymous of you ever been expressed in a thread may be, necessarily know or remember them.

To your other question about the speech of Yves Faroudja:

This statement is presented at a symposium EBU and may have fallen in the EBU Technical Review (editorial 301) read.

You'll be sure to see me when I use the estimates of such an expert more than your salary grant assessments and observations relating to interlace.



Antwort von Catalyst:

Apart of the most discussed issue is 24p supporters of an alleged Film Looks yes, but still very different things, but also with no real film look to do.
For example, to a maximum extent without contrast, but with abgesoffenen blacking überstrahlt and lights, although this effect in the master negative is not to be found, but the copying of works sometimes incorrectly produced.
Furthermore, it is synonymous and even to visible film grain, a typical feature movie. All of these features with film, however, have not the slightest to do but have just in time because of our viewing habits and chemistry due to defective or Phsik burnt into our brains.
They were never aim of film-makers who had and have very different instruments is a wonderful film to look.



Antwort von Axel:

"HeikoS" wrote:
The Filmjudder isolated from pans "better", which is as a kind of cinematic exemption "should be interpreted. Only I understand your remarks about Kammartefakte in Interlacesignnal not (especially since your observations as universal for all media playback stand). These are just to see if it is wrong or inadequately treated (in the case of Progress. Displays) and NEVER tubes in the Halbbilddarstellung dominate.

Motion blur is always in fields with Kammartefakten, which is synonymous for the deinterlacer left their mark. With a strong movement in the Picture (only of course) I can on progressive devices recognize, whether the material is interlaced. I could of course by the reverse to find out because it is not jerky. Both the spring and the tails lollop are the disadvantages of the techniques treasonous. Whether it's equipment on the market, their processing of the "i" is so good that it can no longer be seen, I do not know. There is perhaps synonymous HiFi Systems, a medium-good MP3 sound so you can play, that it holds for uncompressed. This is about the normal standard.

It is good on empty advertising slogans enlighten. 24p or 25p is not synonymous with quality.

The contrary is simply wrong but synonymous. There are situations where one likes to interlace waived. There are people who almost always waive the example myself.



Antwort von PowerMac:

People, you throw yourself against each other, not to be able to read.
That does not quite so much. The whole thread is confusing. What denies you? What do you see the other wrong?



Antwort von Catalyst:

@ Patrik, which you see now wrong. -smile -

I think the question was 24p film look or not?

My simple answer was only that of the viewers of the film is actually 24 p has never really exercised, but now the video frontal faces.

And right in addition to the last guest has all the effects have contributed to, in fact, in addition to the "movie enjoyment in the Movies" added to "have.

That the media are hardly comparable, I think you have to do-not-again illuminate.

I believe that the "disciples" of the cinematography are in search of the "holy grail", the perfectly exposed negative ... the first s.den "Movies" viewers can be passed.
There is nothing reprehensible .... and everything that is synonymous sites of the industry helped users will help us in many directions.
Only ". .. Buy you 24p and you do movies, it may be the best will not be.
Advertising slogans but equal ....
To find out more but it really does not .... or have I misunderstood what now ... ?



Antwort von WoWu:

These stupid Anmelderei nervt ....



Antwort von HeikoS:

And it is precisely this statement strikes me as completely wrong. The spectator takes the 24 frames / s with all its shortcomings both in the movie as synonymous to the home screen true. The dark phases of the wing panel, the motions are not fluid, they conceal the Filmjudder not! And if I am not mistaken, then we have a tube on synonymous ne dark phase, right? You can love me but lies and punish me any supply source in which the issue is dealt with and supports your thesis.

So go, show's me!

"WoWi" wrote:


My simple answer was only that of the viewers of the film is actually 24 p has never really exercised, but now the video frontal faces.





Antwort von Franz Peter:

"HeikoS" wrote:
... me any supply source in which the subject is treated ...


I guess the answer would be:
"Read my book by simply because everything is inside!
ISBN 978-3-00-023484-2 "



Antwort von HeikoS:

Haha that was good!



Antwort von WoWu:

HeikoS

Intuitively you do the only right thing: You give yourself the answers.
A wise decision.



Antwort von HeikoS:

Well, yes times can ask whether the admin's IP was the same. I was not the host, synonymous if you are you so wish.

So: Where is the evidence for your statements? I know you have always only as someone who made such statements on the substance-free criticism deepest and now you're even weigerst and therefore you penetrant, synonymous times a few references to deliver. What do you think?



Antwort von Franz Peter:

The guest was me! and I'm not Heiko ;)...

My IP WoWu the Lord sees not just the admins. But I like to help Mr WoWu next. I provide evidence that;)

Liebe Grüße, Guest 84.119.76.145



Antwort von Franz Peter:

"Anonymous" wrote:

My simple answer was only that of the viewers of the film is actually 24 p has never really exercised, but now the video frontal faces.


One goal of the 24 fps Filmerei was always possible that the viewers do not notice them. If he is now on video with the frontal faces, but then only because he needed to do so sophisticated recording technology does not control. Basically we are all one mind, do not know why there is herumgestritten.



Antwort von Axel:

"HeikoS" wrote:
And it is precisely this statement strikes me as completely wrong. The spectator takes the 24 frames / s with all its shortcomings both in the movie as synonymous to the home screen true. The dark phases of the wing panel, the motions are not fluid, they conceal the Filmjudder not!

Dear Heiko. Other Slashcam (see above) seem to think the discrepancies in this thread for hair-splitting. Everything you write is correct, as far as I understand it correctly. Which DVD, BD or HD a purchased movie did you last time about Filmjudder annoyed?
...
Exactly!

"WoWu" wrote:
My simple answer was only that of the viewers of the film is actually 24 p has never really exercised, but now the video frontal faces.


... and his hair rauft that the studios have not miserly, with a view to use as a DVD, in their films interlace recording method?

I think this is a storm in the glass of water. Sargent, in his blog right when he writes that 24p (or 25p) the blue eyed amateur with more problems, as the suspects. He is absolutely wrong if he deuced frames. His tips for better pictures should first be heeded, then we 50i with approximately 95% of the factors that make a good picture. The minimum difference if you also use p or i, is quite obviously a matter of taste, and the dispute can be known until the doctor comes (to the weird jacket beihat). zum Bild




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