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AVCHD in HDV wandeln ?

AVCHD convert HDV in?

Frage von flyin.pinguin:
August 2007

hello together,

I hereby oute me as AVCHD Neuling
but why can not movies recorded in AVCHD format
in the HDV format and then convert with existing cut editing software?

it should be possible to construct in a different codec to convert.
the camcorder is in space-saving AVCHD on
could be cut but in HDV.

for me would be the time and expense of additional memory needed for the walk is acceptable only if I can cut clever.

I have to ask in the forum have not seen answered.



Antwort von the machine:

convert directly into a gscheiten eh codec if you want to convert ... HDV is not the best wikrlich for editing.
In Final Cut Pro offers itself as the ProRes 422 to;)

Antwort von mikaylo:

"the machine" wrote:
convert directly into a gscheiten eh codec if you want to convert ... HDV is not the best wikrlich for editing.
In Final Cut Pro offers itself as the ProRes 422 to;)

thank you for your reply

this is so?

what is then seen as yet against a AVCHD camcorder?
not only the sophisticated data?



Antwort von WoWu:

Hello Penguins .. it's me again ...
If you are of ACV according to MPEG 2 codierst, you lose the essential advantages of AVC MPEG2 because the DCT with 8x8 pixel blocks used. But uses the AVC 4x4 pixels and can transform integrity with 16-bit values with addition and with Bitshifting processes are implemented.
Due to the smaller blocks can be moving objects much better track. AVC has a significantly better calculation of motion estimation, with an interpolated estimate on 1 / 4 pixel basis.
In addition, AVC so-called reference images, resulting in a more accurate motion estimation contribute. Finally, efficient bidirectional estimated image content, synonymous as the B-frames known, much more frequently used.
A whole bunch of other really major differences are incorporated into the format. Therefore, it is especially important in any Vodec to lead to the "old" DCT based consultants.
So MPEG2 ...... this does not work! That means it works, but it looks bad from behind.
If I'm interested in the topic accurately, synonymous here is my recommendation:

Antwort von flyin.pinguin:

wolfgang hi:)

thank you for the book.

summary are you saying that AVCHD format is the format superior to HDV. ok.

but the problem today is that AVCHD camcorder with sd cards or hard disks in a very low data rate at the store have.

much lower than that of HDV.

and that therefore the benefits that you've described, does not really come to bear.
simply because there is far too high to be compressed. for example during rapid movements.

and if I now consider myself a AVCHD camcorder to buy
then would be - after all said here --
but for me the crucial camcorder that today's low rates have memory.

the format so you could convert
until suitable for AVCHD software has been developed

the memory-rate but is built into the camcorder.

if so shortly event. faster memory card on the market come
will my AVCHD camcorder purchased today will probably not support it and I'll stick to the bad image quality (because low-rate memory) sit.

although the AVCHD theoretically more hergeben would.

I think this is the appropriate forum contributions are properly rausgearbeitet.

or did I make a mistake made?

Antwort von WoWu:

Hello Penguins ...
.... in the whole discussion about HDV is only from the video stream has been spoken. If you but the whole system once, will you find that a very substantial part never comes to language. The fault protection, when Bandgestützten with integrated systems. This is a totally separate issue. If you just hinsiehst, you'll see that the data HDV1 per transport stream and HDV2 as Packetised Elementary Stream recording. The currents differ in their error protection. The PES, however, provided a better transmission and can therefore absorb a little more payload. Long story short, the better the transmission medium, the less bandwidth needs for the error protection. Now can you imagine that when a record on a chip or a HD of course considerably more redundancy savings.
However, AVC is still quite erhebllich further Einsparpotentia.
The motion estimation is through the implementation of intra mode has become very much more efficient ... but still a whole bunch of other changes lead to significantly lower bandwidth at a much better picture arises.
It is therefore not true that necessarily quick movements are more compressed than that of HDV, on the contrary are just quick movements in the AVC much better supported ... I spare myself here once the declaration, rich but happy to ....
In short, of the bandwidth (memory, as you call it), you can absolutely no information pertaining to the quality draw. (at least superficially and in this particular not a demonstration).
Synonymous Especially against the background that in the past written to the tape bandwidth is always confused with the payload was not because the systems have been completely penetrated.
This refers to synonymous, incidentally Manufacturer of editing software ... when I see how few have the error protection mechanisms are not only abgestriffen have, but have used Algorithemen synonymous ....( just their chests a little faster in the image editing to make) will be strengthened at the same AVC occur because AVC much greater computing power to retrieve.
So, now to convert ..... So you say quite correctly that one of course with time becoming more and more software gets .... that's true. Because you so synonymous with disappearance of the band not long-term storage media more, you will already have an archive system must consider. Because the data from the cameras (initially via the USB) but anyway as packets pass and only later be edited, you can find the original packages perfectly preserved until a better solution for me there.
The problem I currently see is the output of the data in the required resolution, and that the current version 1 does not support 180p50, which of course just for Europe of interest.
Even with the current NLE solutions, I would still not so happy ... to circumvent but this has many reasons.
I believe that the contributions to the AVC with not enough knowledge discussed .... there will always be a step too early and stopped to think everything is only a very superficial view reduced.
The AVC is just a standard that is synonymous once could hold a little longer than another year.
So if you only live once so can not yet the full performance from the standard drag and synonymous to live with it, not yet in 1080p50 to be able to work, then the format determines the state of the art ".
In no way would I still HDV newly acquire, in addition, the AVC Prices synonymous yes really unbeatable. Panasonic even offers the "Bundeln" with the Pinacle software. And the other companies will follow suit all .... It is considered in the foreseeable future, a lot of good give recorder ....
Schönes Wochenende ...

Antwort von flyin.pinguin:

hi wolfgang,

of you is the book:) ... because I have before me an expert

ok. your points, I can understand.
but ask the question is yes:

can they now AVCHD camcorder to buy or not?
He is outdated in a year?
whenever a new version of the codec is displayed.
or faster storage devices to be developed.

or can I use the codec in the camcorder update?
how is your assessment?

Antwort von WoWu:


Antwort von wolfgang:

So the discussion here is strong but practice s.der over. AVCHD is simply harder to edit, that is rather the problem of users, such as penguins. I am in ninth way to say that AVCHD is not a principle of modern codec uses - only this is not the point. The problem is rather the workability of the material.

We have today NLEs which synonymous edit AVCHD natively - Pinnacle Studio, Vegas (Sony Files), Edius. But the capabilities of the native material in the timeline of these NLEs is in practice, but severely limited, especially for real-time capabilities are concerned.

Personally, I think, therefore hetue the change in the Intermediate Files (Cineform codec, Canopus HQ codec) unchanged for the most sensible approach in AVCHD editing. At least until the NLEs dominate the format better, and the PC Performans be considered.

Antwort von WoWu:

Hello Wolfgang ..
... You are absolutely right ... the transformation into an intermediate codec is inevitable if you do not want to restrict Grobschnitt, because within the GOP, no system can cut only the s.Anfang or s.Ende), how to's looks.
Aperture, no, no color correction or whatever you want to change s.Deinem material ... without intermediate codec.
But precisely why is it so important to look closely, what with my signal is employed.
In the event that someone then the material will commercially exploit even inevitable, because in a broadcast chain once cascaded codecs are ... and the material behind may not have much with which to do what you really meant.
And, still ... AVC in HDV to convert is like my lawn mower engine in a Porsche installed ...
(Limping, I know)
Hopefully sunny greetings to Austria

Antwort von Marco:

"within the GOP because no system can cut '

They can and do already, synonymous panels, etc. Just do not natively. The "real" destructive editing is done so s.Ende, so if it is rendered no longer s.nativen file, but s.der decoded version.


Antwort von WoWu:

Marco ... lying because you wrong!
No one can cut within a GOP
(only the marketing people in the advertising agencies)

... However you say it ... not the "native" file, not within the GOP!
Because a B or P frame can not be cut!

So you have to somehow resolve the GOP .... and a corresponding number of frames I produce .... which must of course ur in any codec produced .... and there lies the very crux of the matter.
After I had my picture content at first (AVC) codec was removed, I urgently need to choose a codec that is not any other content "reduced"
And there would be just the step back to the MPEG2 codec fatal. Because everything daach on this codec again reduces ... then one could readily assume MPEG2. (Once whatever that synonymous in AVC MPEG2 container is recorded, but not the codec used).

EMC has joined with Silicon Grafic 1998/99 have a server to transmit MPEG2 base built for us before and after solutions researched, at least, hard cut frame accurately perform ....
Therefore, I am with the topic quite intensely familiar.
Who says today, he cuts inside the GOP is good for the Nobel Prize.

Antwort von WoWu:

... Marco, it's me again ...

.... I just in a different Tread read the following:

"Title: My videos are playing on the pixilated!
Author: Howy1973 Published: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 12:08
I take my movies on a JVC 23grd on. With Magix Video Deluxe 2007 plus, they are to MVD format dubbed, edited and exported to WMV format. When viewing with the WMPL films are usually too pixelig.Meine question is, what could be the reason and there are settings to solve the problem? "

This is a march through the "codecs" ... and exactly, what I mean when I say that you need to know what the codec s.meinem Picture "herumschraubt" ....

Now you can of course as long as reciprocating and codecs to try to get a combination, which one pleases.
In physics, it is called then "Successive Approximation"
... This is obviously a way synonymous

Antwort von Marco:

"So you have to somehow resolve the GOP"

Already clear exactly what happens when decoding so synonymous if, for example, cut and then rendered. The statement "within the GOP is not cut" sounds in pure practical terms so that you could AVCHD material only cut every 12 frames. In practice, however, is not so. Even HDV and AVCHD frame can be precisely cut, without the need for the new material should be compressed. It only needs a single re-calculated (in the sense of de-and encoding), namely for the final edition. Before the not happened, it remains the basis of calculation for decoding and viewing of the signal without the original signal would be changed. In the final edition will be the GOP disbanded again when decoding (as in the screening) and the signal for the "laws" of the Render Codecs recalculated.

The "cut", the first order is concerned, is before the final edition was nothing other than a reference. "Cut" so the meaning of "Reference Marks" set. The reference marks an editing software do not need I-frames, which needs at this moment only the cutter for the sighting of the signal and there goes the decoding.
In the moment that the average synonymous technically is real, then synonymous to Resolutionder GOP back into the boat. But that's not really the place where the cutter with "average" means.

"Well of course you can and as long as reciprocating codecs try to get a combination, which one pleases."

The principle may work well. Acquisitions and Distribution codec is so often anyway and given the need to be subordinate. Do so only the best codec for processing and found that most systems offer already codecs, which can be quite useful. Or to view the codec (s) I check through the whole process and if the result is good, I no longer need to search long.

Gruß Marco

Antwort von wolfgang:

Wolfgang, I must absolutely agree with Marco here - from the practice of video editing.

What you probably mean is that a file is not physically s.bestimmtn frames within the GOP can share - in 2 physical files. This is duchaus ok. Only - but this makes no eh normal NLE. The decode the material, and so allows of course a precise frame division - in the newly rendered product. Wäer bad, if that's not going.

For mpeg2 / HDV as an intermediate codec: na, I think this little, I speak rather of specific codecs that gave us the industry synonymous for commercial cutting has evolved. Personally, and after many tests, I think the Canopus HQ codec for example, but synonymous of Cineform codec is not bad.

Antwort von WoWu:

... So-so this is not now .... what you call it trivial to decode is nothing more than generating continuous I frames, in any other codec because even if it only creates a cut list to make offline cut, is synonymous with the final rendering of the original codec dissolved into something (inermediate) transferred depending on the performance and used to make a choice to create codec.
Even timing-Gündem of GOP you can not transcode to GOP!
You must! on any intermediate .... Only s.GOP native beginnings can work!
EMC and Silicon Grafics have 1998 for us (for the station) transmitting an MPEG-server and developed a long time precisely on the problem under consideration .... the result is clear ...
So decode convert heist in a visible codec. Use it only for viewing, for editing, is nevertheless of timing reasons, not cut within closed GOPs possible ... native heist just pure, GOP cut out and again ".... Without any special request. Why else would the Panasonic AVC Intra to use .. (yes, I know, for 4:2:2) ...

Antwort von wolfgang:

Yes clearly be continuously generated images, makes every editing program when decoding a video. And yes, if you so wish of course, are the I-frames.

But what about what we commonly understand by intermediates, there is the subsequent Encodierschritt (for a file to another codec on the hard drive). Since we must be careful - if I have some of Canopus HQ or Cineform Intermediate talking about, then the newly rendered files with I-frames only, on your drive, and of which is cut away.

But you can synonymous HDV - or AVCHD footage with some NLEs directly to the timeline set (we like to say "native" to, because you will not be an intermediate codec in the above sense re-encoded. Vegas or Edius make synonymous for GOP potential structures. And you can be renewed without Rausrendern then everybody Picture your average set.

And these programs are cut by the material in real time, and allow it to define the intersection. But nocmals: do not make the physical cut, the basket holding intersections that are at the final rendering will be used - or when playing from the timeline.

Perhaps we need to nomenclature sure if we do not want to talk to each other.

Antwort von WoWu:

Hello Wolfgang ..
... this is everything to me clearly and absolutely synonymous properly .... we may just not the famous stage stop too early to think ..

So, if you list with cut work you put a timeline along the intersection of "quasi" virtually synonymous notes and see the pictures from one (only to watch) dissolved GOB. These are short sequences of images to be included in a volatile memory whose contents are always in the vicinity of the pointer calculated.
Where to go well there is your "naive" not yet touched.
If you now start to be important, you must cut the list and visors, and the color and everything but s.jedes individual Fram ran! Yes, because you not only every 12th Frame.
So go forth and the calculator makes one, it convenient for this codec or a codec, your choice .... In any case, I-Fram-oriented ..... then introduces a NLE from all the work (rendering) and either did you like your chosen codec issue, or if it is again in an OP tructure land, will the calculator again to re-encode.
But in terms of placing in the intermediate code, (I use for the purpose of nomenclature, I extra "intermediate" because the term can be shown, as synonymous with a possible end-ur codec format handover is encoded.
And that is the starting point of my statement, but that the choice of codecs from the aforementioned reasons must choose very carefully and in view of the enlarged plant in AVCHD Show (about 10 s.der number), one can easily be incorporated into the risk of the substantial benefits of the codec again "in the garbage to come."
And there lies the danger for us and especially the task for the industry. Around the 10-fold s.Rechenleistung to MPEG 2, 6 billion operations to a computer architecture that are not designed, the ALU fast enough from memory to provide not only a challenge for the CPU but Betätigunsfeld a synonymous for the software vendor (the omission), which only their products look good to leave.
But even here, the tester asked the "to see if the manufacturers and software companies synonymous implement what the format promises.
And that's why I think that is precisely the topic for people like you is synonymous and the last Denkstufe still cope.

Antwort von WoWu:

--- Please excuse for the dropped points but somehow my Keyboad interrupt too long ...

Antwort von wolfgang:

Yes of course you have a codec, to which we render, just select. And of course we will keep the quality of the output of material with the intermediate or final stages compare - and if only a visual inspection is visual. That is the daily bread, if we stop testing are synonymous - and not only in routine operation.

Antwort von Marco:

Mir itself is limited to the statement that within a GOP are not cut, not to discuss in conjunction with AVCHD HDV as Intermediate. The former is for a cutter very misleading. Technically completely correct this statement creates the appearance that at no cut frame accurate timing possible. But the precise timing frame is cut at GOP based formats may well be the same then what happens behind the surface. Qualitative considerations are an entirely different issue. No less important, but I think something must really be broken down separately, so that it remains understandable.
As for the first cutter is that if I am at a crossroads 00:03:12:13 set this in the end result really synonymous with 00:03:12:13 is executed, and not possibly a few frames later or earlier, only make it to the GOP of the source format fits. That is. Do many of us every day.

"what you call it trivial to decode is nothing more than generating continuous I frames, in any other codec"

Mir is the importance of this process, if it is then with the next, other codec goes, well aware. And in my opinion - qualitative terms - can be extremely vsdann when the next GOP codec again is based and thus the game begins again in front of. So the meaning of the startup issues when it comes, whether as HDV Intermediate is suitable, safe and very accurate full.
However, I never referred to this, but just totally irrespective of what the signal at a later date may still be taken only on the timing of the cut, as defined by the cutter is interpreted as such. So at the time of the sighting and the referencing of the timing of the cut.
At this early point of processing, it is trivial at first, because not just yet another codec changed, but it is solely for the purpose of viewing a decoded uncompressed signal. Another codec comes here not even come into play. This process is at this time to 100% nondestruktiv and therefore inconsequential s.dieser body, or almost irrelevant, because this decoding process naturally just like AVCHD codec at a tremendous computing power demands.

Just to avoid any misunderstandings, which in turn affects the statement relates.


Antwort von WoWu:

@ Marco

... Then, we finally managed to produce consistent, because the discussion in the course somehow apart is gone, because I was still at the starting point, where it was called in AVC and convert HDV had on the harmfulness of codec cascade out, and certainly if they are retrospective ... and you have to frame the issue of accurate cutting hooked .... So to see it with Wolfgang (Ö) to say, in the nomenclature would be the exact frame for me .... work and already are in our understandings of both.
I have only taken away from the discussion that I have a few more graphics to be supplied to a few things to be better fed.

I look forward to the next debate, if you do not have too much annoyed.

Antwort von Marco:

Discussions such as these, which nourish me and informative training, annoy me in any way. Quite the contrary.


Antwort von Bruno Peter:

Discussions about quality losses during the conversion of video footage A video B, we have always been kept, eg in case of DV-AVI and MPEG-2 DVD. Now the debate appears even having a book in case AVCHD / HDV conversion again again. Below, I have a little comparison with a 1:1 frame excerpt before and after the conversion is done, the result here:

zum Bild

A = AVCHD Picture Frame, Picture B = HDV Frame
Certainly, a difference is there already to see if the magnifying glass for viewing attending. But I think the picture quality difference between the current playback chain including HDTV is depending on the system panel, image size, the settings used and the manufacturer brands and price ranges much more dramatic than that we are on the image quality loss when converting the head would break.

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