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AVCHD oder HDV bei schnellem Rechner?

AVCHD or HDV for fast calculator?



Frage von inki:
Dezember 2007

Hi,

I have to myself after a long search and some of its own recording tests with different cameras now "only" between AVCHD in the form of the Canon HG10 and HDV in the form of the Canon HV20 decide.

Once with a MacPro 8-core 3GHz with the RAM and abundant computing power is not an issue more likely (but needs s.Plattenplatz after Umcodieren of AVCHD for FinalCut Pro) I am now faced with a rather emotional decision.

My stomach is proposing for the HG10 - my head for the HV20. With the latter I can even post s.Notebook make HDV, with the former, I must still provide decent disk space - or there are already rumors of a FinalCut Pro version, which can cut native AVCHD?

Can anyone truly ko criteria call for the HV20, so I look at the HG10 growth with good conscience can?

Honestly, I would have s.liebsten currently HDV on hard drive, I'm the tapes and dropped frames when capturing sorry. Only the JVC Everio is probably not an option, if you believe the tests gives :-(

For a little input (like emotionally colored) or HDV-to-disk options, I would be grateful ...

Gruß,
Ingo



Antwort von Bruno Peter:

If you AVCHD natively as smoothly as HDV natively want to cut, you need a 4-5 times faster Calculator. The seeming advantage of the grave no longer need to capture relative quickly, if you only s.die incompatibility of various formats AVCHD camera thinks. The problems appear only in the processing chain with the AVCHD material, perhaps you have but then again in HDV and then convert again to a AVCHD AVCHD-DVD to finally get.

The quality of AVCHD material, however, is in my view is correct, it is only half the bit rate for identical quality to HDV material.

The high compression of AVCHD material, thus making the problems in the processing chain.

So really it depends of the video equipment, eg NLE editing natively or via Intermediate (Intermediate which will be used?). What hardware resources are available, or which will make extra time? Are AVCHD DVDs created? If high-resolution disc with H.264 or rather with MPEG2 HD material to be produced?

As you in this my short loose emotion expression can recognize, you must set yourself on what path YOU the question.

For me is quite good, despite currently average only HDV equipment in question, for example, cut as smoothly, it's fun with this material to work natively, just as I prefer.



Antwort von inki:

With 8 cores, 3GHz realtime processing for me no problem, but rather have that for an hour film in Apple ProRes 422 codec to 45GB data incurred.

The aim is to H.264 format for playback directly from the calculator to be - possibly synonymous synonymous expected down to SD for standard DVDs. Through the post here but I must in any case Umcodieren again, no preference of whether I come HDV or AVCHD.

In itself, I would because of the smoothness and the smaller footprint of the HDV material so happy to work with HDV - I just want to necessarily synonymous away from tape ...

Are there other than the JVC Everio no other HDV Camera with plate?








Antwort von Bruno Peter:

Then your decision is already taken ...
Have fun with AVCHD then!



Antwort von wolfgang:

You can still synonymous with HDV devices to record to external disks, but in most cases, the devices stop the band previously recorded. External disks are just synonymous cumbersome. Chip is used for HDV recording only with more expensive devices such as the EX1 (in the price class of the HV20 is not announced or known).

Take it to the AVCHD camcorder, and working with Intermediate codecs. Then the angehmen AVCHD editing, and other panels not cost the world.



Antwort von WoWu:

Hello Inki

Basically based MPEG2, HDV uses the MPEG-4 will allow us to nearly identical tools. Also, the stream structure is nearly identical except that the MPEG4 and more sophisticated tools and the stream has not build the Limitirungen subject, such as MPEG 2nd With H.264 so you decide for the more advanced format. That it is subject to a higher compression is simply wrong. The tools are more efficient, which means but not that it is more compressed. Quite the contrary, the algorithm will next durchgerechnet than MPEG2. it requires, depending on the profiles and levels between 1.5 and 3.7 x more computing power. The currently available in the Profiles and camcorders tend Level, depending on the tools used more in the 1.5-fold. Only when you are in the higher profile come, the need to s.Rechenpower, but the camcorder can not be expected to apply.
Following an investigation of the Blue-Ray association, there is no visible difference between the original and more of the recording at a data rate of 16 Mbit / s. You come also with significantly lower data rates with excellent results. Once out of Premiere and AVID editing programs still exist, I would be for an incision in the H.264 codec decide. Intermediate codecs worsen the results. A wavelet codec, such as the Apple ProRes422 he is being used, changed the picture because of the inaccuracies in temporal wavelet visible, unless you've only very peaceful imagery. There is no visible change instead.
Incidentally subject H.264 is no longer synonymous known limitations of the GoP structure, as we were accustomed of MPEG2.
All in all, decide you're in H.264 for the more modern, better and more modern bitstream, not only the quality has improved significantly, but the future still synonymous ahead. However, and I repeat always, I would have only the next generation s.Camcordern buy, because the current models seem to indicate the length of the HDV models of the time, only with a new codec and AZ-method.
Mourning the MPEG2 codec not. Even if you take him on board would have HDV can record, so he retains the well-known limitations. Television and video is just a lively media and, fortunately, the development is not stopped.



Antwort von Bruno Peter:

Quote:
Once out of Premiere and AVID editing programs still exist, I would be for an incision in the H.264 codec decide.


I understand this sentence is not ...
Do You, because Premiere does not AVCHD natively in the basic delivery can handle, would you still decide to H.264?
And where did you read this that you have with 1.5 pc performance AVCHD as well as could edit HDV?



Antwort von Quadruplex:

"inki" wrote:
I just want to necessarily synonymous away from tape ...

Why?



Antwort von Bruno Peter:

Such a media-card I have in digital times "zerschossen" because while saving the battery voltage has collapsed. Everything was gone. With a tape, you can still save a lot, is synonymous well suited for archiving. Even with video on hard drive or on 8cm DVD you do not have the yellow from the egg, in my opinion.

With the tape I am completely satisfied for the moment. Had there never been a serious problem but a huge advantage when filing the return from the PC to tape.

I think there is throughout the video chain, with security still a lot to improve the tape-recording medium in the camera to switch to me personally is not as important.



Antwort von WoWu:

@ Peter Bruno

.... that was perhaps not formulated ... but has the ADOBE MainConcept algorithm and implemented over the Codec in Premiere. Thus, both the standard of Premiere as a synonymous of AVID supported. Sure, there are still more who now have implemented the codec and it further added.
Regarding utilization of the computers there is a study by the University of Rostock, the topic dealt with extensively. It is already well understood that you do not have any H.264 profiles and each level has a uniform may, therefore you will already need to differentiate very clearly how much work of calculation calculator ever to be done. In addition, it is an asymmetric process involved and the main computational work in the rendering process, of course, is a put right in the timeline does not work impeded because the decoder if it is good, the codec decodes in real time ... So with other words, the lump sum you can not say that it is x times as much.

Still relating to tape: We are now quite a few drives broke down and, of course, an entire portion of the tape with "eaten". Particularly annoying is when one is working in countries in which the next service station a few hundred kilometers away, because with the smallest mechanical damage of course, the entire camera is no longer running a drive and not just exchange, like a defective hard disk.
Often we have the Camera skåne can not synonymous, in the interest, at least the tape as undamaged as possible to save, because the shots that had the value of the camera is now far exceeded.
I am telling you, tape drives by their precision engineering are synonymous anything but ideal storage solutions. With the archiving, I'm going to do right ... it was always' ne good thing and I think so synonymous that the issue of archiving has not really been resolved.
Moreover, flash memory cards are not synonymous, the yellow from the egg, with the exception that they already come with errors, they synonymous with each deletion slightly broken.
Aging and therefore must have early or later to be replaced. In the few photos is not limited, but at 50 frames per second, you will very soon feel .... and they are so cheap now is not exactly synonymous.
It has everything and for his opponent.



Antwort von Meggs:

"WoWu" wrote:
That it is subject to a higher compression is simply wrong. The tools are more efficient, which means but not that it is more compressed.


Both MPEG2 as synonymous with MPEG4, you can set the bitrate. Usual AVCHD camcorder to work with lower bitrates than HDV camcorder. The data to be stored / unit of time are at less AVCHD. Consequently, usually, but not necessarily at higher AVCHD compressed than HDV.
What you think are the losses caused by the compression created. Since more efficient MPEG4, with comparable image quality can be compressed more, and at the same AVCHD compression would be the better picture.



Antwort von WoWu:

... jau, it was perfectly expressed. You have absolutely right of course, degree of compression is compression ratio but the results, summarized s.Du did was what I wanted to express. Thanks Dir








Antwort von wolfgang:

"WoWu" wrote:

Once out of Premiere and AVID editing programs still exist, I would be for an incision in the H.264 codec decide. Intermediate codecs worsen the results.


How Adobe supports the H.264 or AVCHD editing?

And if you ever see a deterioration, even if they metrologically to grasp it, it then asked times.



Antwort von WoWu:

@ Wolfgang

since 21 .. August 2007

And it looks worse on a suitable system always, just sometimes you have to know what one has to respect in such procedures.



Antwort von Bruno Peter:

That's true but not!

You can choose from PPCS3 in H.264 output, but not without cutting any purchase of plug-in. White garnicht at the moment whether such a plugin for editing there?

Of course you can send an AviSynth something to tinker with files easier to berabeitende format to convert, I've already made synonymous. About possibly from AVCHD Wolfgang criticizes quality losses, I would not at this fight, because they are for me at any rate has not been apparent and that is at least to me.

I've the "quality" in the conversion of HDV AVCHD after views, here is a frame-neck:

zum Bild

A = AVCHD Picture Frame (Original), B = HDV Picture Frame

In the current video image can be seen even less.
One should not listen to liquidated claims, just test yourself and then decide what you want.



Antwort von WoWu:

... in reference to Adobe, I would look at the recommended reading for the press releases.
For example: which profiles? Which Level? which tools? which loops? What data? What GoP?

And most important .. which codec? Because H.264 is not a codec but a Bitsream. So, who has written the codec?
And what are we then compare the qualities of different codecs, which in turn with H.264 only s.Rand has something to do.

Sure, I can an encoding set so low that it does not look better than MPEG 2nd
Therefore, please specify the Comparison synonymous can be assessed.

Please synonymous for a scene in which the Bewegungsprädiktion may.



Antwort von Bruno Peter:

Above, I have the highest bit rate of the Pana-SD1 output HDV with 25MBit / s, compared ...



Antwort von WoWu:

My guess is very strong, which in the current camcorders only the Basic Profile is aufgestülpt and otherwise (except for the recording) or the hardware of the HDV-use types. You can see that s.der resolution because it is such a Resolutionim H.264 does not exist. My recommendation is always, first camcorder to buy the H10 profiles support, because you can see the configurations exactly once, so you will find that all the interesting tools to use until then.
It would be interesting times, such scenes to analyze the synonymous tools to effect the attack, because in a Still image you see next nothing, as the Resolutionund the Objektivgüte and the seem to be the same. MPEG is but a movement-oriented system, which now consists of still images of the nature of the thing does not work out. So behave identically to MPEG2 and H.264 both of them identical to JPEG. And, as I said, what we see is the codec and not the bitstream.
More can be found in the moment from the examples do not see.



Antwort von Bruno Peter:

The fact is that in any case currently HDV much more easily in the production chain with a liquid ansolut cut to a high-resolution disc can handle. The archiving on tape is very simple and proven feasible. In the real picture is in the AVCHD to HDV Comparison no visible advantage.

If anyone here a visible image quality advantage of AVCHD to HDV cinematically document may be of similar material may make it here, please.



Antwort von cmbfilm:

"Quadruplex" wrote:
"inki" wrote:
I just want to necessarily synonymous away from tape ...

Why?


last night is my decision for the AVCHD Camera fallen and precisely for this reason.

I was very with the reduced and the implicit Foootprint archiving of tapes in the HV20 geliebäugelt. Now I had with my leztzten test Dropframes and synonymous here with the last transmission of the SD band, I needed because aborted capture attempts over an hour for 10 minutes material - no thank you, when you copy of the record, I will no longer happen.

Thank you all for the valuable input. I accept the HG10 :-)

Ingo



Antwort von Bruno Peter:

What video editing programs can with the clip of the Canon HG10 actually work?








Antwort von Bernd E.:

"Bruno Peter" wrote:
What video editing programs can with the clip of the Canon HG10 actually work?

iMovie'08 on an Intel Mac.

Gruß Bernd E.



Antwort von cmbfilm:

I can only endorse Bruno: The sole storage on chip is dangerous. The forthcoming "CF Fire doors" of Sonydürfte currently eierlegende Wollmilchsau be. Archiving and backup to tape, transfer to the calculator of the CF. Practically, easy and good.



Antwort von cmbfilm:

"Bruno Peter" wrote:
What video editing programs can with the clip of the Canon HG10 actually work?


FinalCut Pro 6.0.2 on a IntelMac - or supplemented according to the Apple Intermediate AVCHD Converter "Voltaic" synonymous to a PowerPC Mac.



Antwort von wolfgang:

"Bruno Peter" wrote:
What video editing programs can with the clip of the Canon HG10 actually work?


Vegas 8




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