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AVCHD am mac

AVCHD s.mac

Frage von be-sign:
Oktober 2007

hello together,

great forum. now have very long to read a lot of contributions and so get a comprehensive overview, I post in the beginner forum, I'm in this matter that is new.

briefly to my profile: main areas are graphics and webdesign (adobe software suite, canon eos 20d for pictures) and music in the form of lessons and occasional appearances. s.computer with logic per 8th

now stands for family reasons (junior is imminent) and possibly synonymous for design tasks in a digital video camera. I have been a little bit with iMovie and iDVD rumgespielt. nothing more. But what I want is HD and 16:9.

computational power plays no role, since MacPro (4 cores a 2.66 GHz), 4 Gbyte RAM (and space for another 12), currently 750GByte plate (for ceiling 3TByte). it should therefore not fail in AVCHD.

My dilemma is the combination of: camera / software. for some reason, I want my work on the Apple platform it. only to unproductive discussions on for-and again the program on one or another bestriebssystem in the run-up to prevent. I know enough to both platforms :-)

The choices are s.software me:
- IMovie 8 HD (AVCHD may, but is compared to the previous version so badly cut that it is only maintained good video - not perspektive, the theme video synonymous in everyday work to be used.)
- IMove 6 HD (can be significantly more, but not AVCHD)
- Final Cut Express 3.5 (would be my choice, but unfortunately synonymous - yet - not AVCHD. And since our junior-to mid november december will come, I can not really wait ...)
- Final Cut Studio 2 (AVCHD can, but for my application simply too expensive. Unless apple analogy here would be the price per logic half. But that is within the next few weeks not to expect synonymous.)

on-camera side, I have 2 models of canon envisaged (was previously with my analog cameras of A1 to digital EOS 20D synonymous always very satisfied).
a model is the Canon HV20 (HD on tape), the other the canon HG10 (AVCHD on disk).

in the forum I have learned that a future-proof AVCHD format is basically tapeless working smarter algorithms and because less data is produced. This will on the part of processing more requests, but in my case should represent no problem. the HG10 would irritate me if I have the following two points could have been clarified:
1) I assume that Final Cut Express on short or long term can be synonymous AVCHD. the "big brother" Final Cut Studio can do and the consumer-variant iMove8 can already synonymous. is probably only a matter of time. There is a satisfactory solution, the AVCHD data on the Apple platform to convert so that the results in the current Final Cut Express can take over?
2) what do I do if I'm in vacation, the disk is full and my MacPro I just do not have in your pocket? platte change is probably not. I still have a 17 "Powerbook G4 with 1GHz. that could download data for the rich. may have firewire 800, but hold only 1.1 usb

what you can out of my hands out of the guessing.

Many thanks in advance
bernd Scheurer

Antwort von macuser1977:

if you want to start right away würd ich dir Canon HV20 to advise the synonymous and I am really very satisfied. I s.mac cut with Final Cut Express HD and everything is running as it should - wonderful.
My hardware an iMac Core Duo 2GHz, 2GB RAM, 250GB disk and a MacBook Pro 2.16 GHz 2GB RAM, a 800GB external FW800 which can Platter (FW400 is sufficient for HDV completely!)

Antwort von WoWu:

Hello Bernd ...
Actually did everything u said ...
Let's back to ... the solution should have the Powerbook holiday videos intercept all times.
In terms of cutting programs, we will all still a few months to wait until satisfactory solutions are available s.Markt. My prediction is that, at least in the higher profiles of MPEG-4 without hardware support in the form of an DSPs will not go, synonymous and especially because the computer architectures of the usual front and rear CPUs do not fit. Even with your 4-cores, you're in view of AVC still lean equipped. (With the DSPs, the "only" the AVC coding have to make only 5 kernels alone for this task). But as a DSP plug will not cost all over the world. After that, but then the CPU free for at least the GUI. Expect, therefore, not necessarily a software extension, which is then synonymous operates satisfactorily. Here, you'll probably synonymous still a few months must have patience, but then searched with the powerful algorithm synonymous behind the much better photos and a downstream forward-facing system.
In the meantime, will u with an intermediate codec to live.
To view the archive you need to worry, however, because admittedly, with the cassette was slightly easier. Only I would like to have the question of the step is not in the others, but really convincing advantages to construction.

Antwort von Jan:


I have the HG 10, unfortunately, still not in the company, can therefore only after the technical data and the very bauähnlichen HV 20 go.

Panasonic and Sony AVCHD cameras support only win with their software, but the cameras are recognized as a drive s.Mac.

Canon has always been a little Mac-friendly in recent times in Consumercamordern in Sonyand Pana was always just the Win PC.

The SW of the HG 10 is accompanied by Corel Application, Digital Video Solution and Backup utility, I do not know how the software will support Mac, but if you only as Einfachstschnittprogramm eh.

Ok, the HG 10 has quite a small plate of it with about 6 hours recording time, SonySR 7, 8 h and SR 8, almost 12 hours at best quality.

For the ordinary people on vacation actually synonymous sufficient professionals advise as synonymous to the amateur and meticulous recording of all rumfilmerei None wild few seconds, but before about what is important to me.

Ok, then who but the plate vollmachen want to be, at least with the Sony cameras direct burner VRD MC 5 users, this goes contrary to previous MC 3 AVCHD now. Whether the synonymous HG 10 to 100% is detected, it must be tested. AVCHD is unfortunately not always halt AVCHD, which has lately shown synonymous Panasonic.


Antwort von WoWu:

Hi Jan ...
thank you for posting ... I think the enclosed synonymous editing programs can not really replace NLE. Most are synonymous only plug-ins for the player ... I know that JVC just as the QT plug-in mitgiebt in order to be able to see AVC. But, as I said, we will still have to have some patience. At least Final Cut Pro recognizes s.6.02 AVC and it can be transferred into ProRes .... everything still compromises and I assume that most other NLEs same. I would be really surprised if not.
For compatibility you have to say that AVC is a scalable method and you do not make the mistake may be different levels to play together. The synonymous relates to the storage volumes. Unfortunately, the manufacturer say anything now just AVC, but should be synonymous, the better indication of the scale contribute. Otherwise, once at AVC bit more defined than in the previous procedures, because the synonymous SMPTE apparently because of the collar burst that all Manufacturer repeatedly their proprietary and cook soup has a Recommendation issued, which provides a compatibility. So you see, if it do not start talking to each other plays, it is quite unlikely with s.System. Synonymous this respect I am fairly confident that a stable situation is.
And in relation to the hard drive and the daily workload, the filmmakers are so synonymous always the natural limits of the battery set. When charging is always time to take the stuff on a laptop to play.
Times I would find interesting to know how the boards actually act on strokes ... Crashed the plate? Sonysagt yes, because they have a sensor, which detects .... This should really be part einolles ...

Antwort von be-sign:

hello together,

many thanks for the reply. with the automatic mail notification on reply has not worked well, otherwise I would have your contributions earlier discovered :-(.

still a wonder to dsp-plugin: it must be a hardware so synonymous of a corresponding software will be activated. There are special cards that of Final Cut Express can be used. something I used to be seen nor heard. if these expenses for AVC is really needed, should I look at the place, the video will play with me once again superior.

Despite all enthusiasm for new technologies, "feel" of the rat macuser1977 s.besten, since he precisely my requirements. if I - to name only incidentally - avc videos to cut my MacPro only once for additional dsp hardware must expand - and this despite the complete audio CD productions go, while incidentally, photoshop, indesign GoLive and in the rosetta - emulation potter and some other little things like filemaker, mail and various Web browsers are open, then AVC but rather what haupberuflichen for a film freak.

many thanks again

Antwort von Axel:

'good sign' wrote:
... then AVC but rather what haupberuflichen for a movie freak.

Nor. Clearly AVCHD "future proof", but for a Cam, a Taui cost is no argument. Until the additional costs s.Bearbeitungs hardware and software are much cheaper (in a? Two? Years) there will be AVCHD cams geile with memory cards and even better features for even more money. And a dozen films essential content you have until then to HDV (HV20) is not made. Safe is death.

Antwort von WoWu:

@ Bernd

... Your conclusion is correct ... But there is no new technology to verniedlichen. It has very significant advantages in terms of quality and images that I have of AVC-I and compare DVCProHD in 1080 could have very significant differences shown. But AVC needed now even the approximately 10-fold s.Rechnerleistung if one expects an identical performance (real-time processing).
To HD with AVC compression - will be over 600 billion arithmetic operations per second are required.
Today's CPUs are powerful, but their structure is not always appropriate for all video editing processes suitable.
Our processors are not responsible for the pixel level processing tasks more suited for large data flows, which in today's CPUs Bewegungsprädiktion auftreten.Die the ALU can not be fast enough with data supply.
These are just other tasks, as you've described to you and only seems to appear without restriction, because in reality our "boxes" synonymous not multitask real calculator and the processes are in fact sequentially from. The calculation process until the result lasts longer. Did you give a real-time process, such as a video presentation in between, this already looks slightly different, because then your other programs will remain.

@ Axel
I can understand you if you maybe just a HDV system have increased, that you look at the time horizon for HDV as described Wishes ... But the reality writes other numbers: Fuji returns the MB86H51 since April and from March 2008 has a target of 5 million units. (With 7 Fuji because otherwise chip manufacturers provide similar hardware). It is now conceivable, as long as the industry needs, a small platinum Chen manufacture. I am quite sure that another time horizon has, than the one of you predicted.

Perhaps more to the pricing horizon: A single piece of the MB86H51 will cost EUR 184 ... Now you can, the season in 1000, 10k, 100k approximately ausrechen. Then you come because unit prices of perhaps 15-20 EUR ... So anything that the budgets of the videographers should blow up, even if the return to their NLE Manufacturer moon on it set prices. Everything will be under the famous Prices move .. but this one has a real time system of a quality and a working speed of the previously known far behind.

I can here only the facts on the table, decide what you want, anyone can just for that reason alone.

Antwort von be-sign:

@ WoWu

it away from me, new technology to verniedlichen. as I mentioned, I am of basic technology to a passionate man. But despite all enthusiasm, there are limits, the writing life - in other words: my petty cash. and here I must simply weigh the costs and use. particularly as a one-man company with dranhängender family.

For the same reason I was with my digital slr synonymous starting in the midfield (eos 20d), although I have to eos 1, no further extension annoying burning, higher resolution, faster electronics, FireWire port, wlan, a waterproof housing and gps option had would have. all great features, but far beyond my financial limits.

if I for my AVCHD - for all other needs opulent mac pro, which is not exactly synonymous at Aldi level to have been - additional disk space, suitable software beyond the 1000 euro and an extra dsp hardware needs, the investment exceeds the final to a multiple: the context of the application is primarily private and when the opportunity to gather experience, perhaps in the area of web and graphic design first steps to take.

otherwise would be made if my video actually stood and would involve an investment existenz-building measure would be. AVCHD or is in a user group located in which one can not speak about money, because it has? ;-)))

I hope that is not misleading and I came across you for all the help and explanation grateful.

bernd Scheurer

Antwort von PowerMac:

AVCHD is of Final Cut Pro in real time to ProRes or Apple Intermediate Codec changed. You need no DSP cards. AVCHD is just difficult to work, I wanted no additional synonymous card for it. I advise you to HDV, and more precisely to the HV20.

Antwort von WoWu:

@ PM

.. the thing with the ProRes synonymous is not entirely true ... First, it renders even half a day to and then you get the familiar fabric softener-Effect of Wavelet ProRes world of the bargain.
In addition, apparently all the tools, although they require computing power, but the quality synonymous Brin, the CAVLC tools, not when transcoding calculated and supported. From the Tools synonymous CABAC only the part of P 3.2.
So with other words ... who is the front, it is with quite the wrong impression from the codec win. Since Apple has once again no teeth broken from the crown and that which is given as a decoder has been used would have actually heard in iMovie.
And what do you have against a co-processor for a few euros if you like it delivers the perfect time? The future software will anyway not be able to resolve the future .... then yes you will of what long have HDV. But some are now so synonymous nor VHS ... enter the heck yes.
-smile -

Antwort von otzelot:

I have the contribution to MB86H51 already knew ..

To these boards or any other type and I do not know. Do you have an info about what's to come or is already there?

Antwort von WoWu:

.. one has to wonder just what all the companies which are already in the Mac as a card stuck, if you HDSDI no longer enough ... the latest supply the calculator so now with the I / Os and ordinary codecs that of the NLE's in no where near this quality will be made available. Since it is almost to the piece silicone on the map to stick (saving one's own codec programming) and hardware interface than the same chip with an HDMI or UDI-to ... would be almost synonymous with the problem of the vxYCC done, because the signaling is because ... or you know already have a calculator which has already been implemented. If then still the most common Cartreader for Express format is, will anyone whether he is not such a card einsteckt, moreover, when his old calculator is to be used next and he does not overpriced "seeds" must buy.
But this is still a good half of years time ... I would only look where such cards so far is synonymous built .... there is not only the know-how, but the customer synonymous.

Antwort von be-sign:

@ PowerMac:

thank you, is the second tip in that direction (see Macuser1977). I think it will be synonymous. it had the "feeling better".

@ WoWu:

still have two questions (because I'm interested in the technical background): magnitude of what we speak of "a few euros for a dsp card? Such maps of programs like. Final Cut Express, addressed (open plugin architecture), or you have to back to back additional software?


ps: email notice when the answer is still not happening ....

Antwort von WoWu:

@ Bernd

... I know not how long you already are, but maybe you still remember the first s.die DV cards .. synonymous at that time a "disgrace" for the calculator ... and a FireWire was synonymous None yet. At the time, came as the first usable NLE's for the average consumer.

Similar situation today, except that the algorithm not only become more expensive, but all good algorithms are now Licensed s.Firmen as Thomson, S + W, or Philips Ccube as early as 1998 were heavily active in MPEG4 area and have a good algorithm for the others wrote.
It is for all the "stragglers" in the business NLE therefore not so easy, even to write good algos that are not already in any patent specification are.
Therefore, I am sure they will map icl. Algo + licensed its GUI, so the entire NLE so the price of EUR 1.400-1.600 offer ... this is all inside interfaces s.HW and what the future needs. The upgrading of the host CPU would be more expensive and less effective (because, unlike at the time when the architecture of this computer is no longer true).
Perhaps there are "Sidecar" cards, for a port, as of now Envivia (or something like the hot), but via the USB port only for a lower Resolutionvon H.264 support. But only as synonymous to cost EUR 170. (Errors excepted).
Perhaps there are such cards synonymous profiles for the H10 in the future ... but there remains the question of the outside world .. HDMI or UDI? What is with the new color? As I go with the sound monitors in the future and take advantage of "lip-sync here?
All such issues must be kept at a non-integrated solution, "created" are. Sure, it will give colleagues among us, which is located, but very many of us to be integrated and especially compatible solution.
.. Hope that was not too much novel ...

Antwort von sarasocke:

I hope being on HDMI, but DisplayPort is expected for the future untinteresant not be synonymous.

Fits Geärte HDMI, and will in the future (probably) synonymous in the computer areas to monitor for example.


Antwort von Axel:

"WoWu" wrote:
@ Axel
I can understand you if you maybe just a HDV system have increased, that you look at the time horizon for HDV as described Wishes ... But the reality writes other numbers: Fuji returns the MB86H51 since April and from March 2008 has a target of 5 million units. (With 7 Fuji because otherwise chip manufacturers provide similar hardware). It is now conceivable, as long as the industry needs, a small platinum Chen manufacture. I am quite sure that another time horizon has, than the one of you predicted.

It is important in the decision to help when one jumps on a train, in this case on the train AVCHD. Perhaps there is a compact affordable solution for postprocessing is already in half a year. In a year or two there for the same money but better cameras. This is I believe not a very bold prediction, one needs merely to observe product cycles.
AVCHD codec is better for pure FullHD, corresponding to TV sets and with the players. In the medium term trend in prices, there will be more likely five years, until the standard is. Saublöd, who can turn on something now, imho.
For most features designed for DVD and HD-occasional shows (HDV Mpeg4 is synonymous with an option) is a workable HDV format, and Comparison with your VHS is totally exaggerated. It is a bit like the question: If you are in the spring of 1998 a used Hi8 or a new DV camcorder to buy? DVD Players for 1500 were DM (DM for 1200 burner, a blank for 35 DM) and more, NLE editing systems established slowly, and the first DV Cams were ridiculously overpriced scrap.
With AVCHD, it is not so dramatic, but at the moment does not need

Antwort von be-sign:

@ WoWu

was not too "romantic". what video s.computer, as already mentioned, new.
what computer itself: first contact with an IBM 360 (an IT system in handy wohnung size) and programmable RPN calculators of hp (50 program steps - no more). I myself am born in 1965 ;-)
Since pretty much everything in the hand-held. of atari commodore and Sinclaire on to windows. I know synonymous nor the 10-pack 3.5 "floppy disk for 70 DM I am with computers großgeworden for which we first had to write a program in order to be able to use. how spoiled we are today: Buy the computer and there is already lots of convincing ready to use it ...

but in the mentioned area use for video is true with AVCHD and dsp card for me in just as I would have my mac pro purchased, only to once daily mails and get out and again a brief s.die oma to write. This would be synonymous a Mac mini or an imac done.

Of course, I will pursue this next thread, because I am technically interested. s.meiner purchase but nothing will change. because my questions have been fully and competently answered.


Antwort von Schleichmichel:

AVCHD is synonymous rather than a secure development branch, whose capacity is still far from being exhausted. The compression is more efficient than MPEG2. But by the lower data rates is the advantage for the moment remains to be seen (max. 15MBit / s, or?).

The current AVCHD camcorders will be future-proof, as the HDV camcorder. Both will have their (finite) device lifetime and then you can still see what format it takes. Perhaps MPEG5? Only the moment you are fast with HDV unterwegs, synonymous when it requires a greater data rate.

Antwort von WoWu:

@ Bernd, surreptitious Michel, Axel, ghost
.. first of all thank you for the lively Threat. The beautiful thing is that the settings are as varied as the participants. Therefore, any right necessarily synonymous, because there is not only a way and certainly not the "golden" way. What I am only trying to help in the Forum, the environment, that any choice.

@ Bernd ...
I find it very reassuring that there are still people here in the forum there, where Sinclair, Z8 assembler and say something ... I can see, we rely on an identical basis back.

Schleich @ Michel
with your assessment, I so compliant, even though I think that was no longer developing it, because the standard to determine 1080p50/60 written.
Somehow have but here in the forum, the 15 Mbit / s for AVC set ... unfortunately not this is true, whoever has the synonymous upset.
AVC is a scalable standard in 8 sections and a system of 24 Mbit bitrate for AVCHD, which can be scaled down in 6,9,13 and 18 Mbit / s. While the lower scale to the 3.0 version, so SD should relate. As the "I" version 54.3 and 11.8 Mbit / s available. The tale of the 15 Mbit limitation thus belongs to the land of legends.
MPEG 5, does not .. MPEG7 and until these are metadata and then again only MPEG 21 as a framework for multimedia applications ... So the direction is nothing new s.Horizont.
Interesting in this context is Appel's new program, which makes it with the next version of Final Cut Pro will give the transfer-Manger. Maybe they are indeed on their wavelet codec back ... Who knows?

@ Axel ... I agree with you that in the next product cycle is probably more features in the cameras will ... whether they are better, I do not know, because s.den programming algorithm in the DSP's is usually not changed. Insofar as the features are fairly cemented.
In terms of the AVC is better for FullHD be contrary but I am quite decided. A very fine Bewegungsprädiktion with Resolutionsondern has nothing to do with sharpness.
Moreover, there is a whole additional set of tools available to eliminate everything that what we all s.MPEg2 procedures sosehr have criticized. However, did you right when you are under no BlueRay DVD or HDDVD think ... because the best method will be through the old algorithm again "zerschossen". A Picture is only as good as the weakest link in the chain.
Therefore, HDV MPEG4 synonymous not an option, because HDV is the weakest link and what you already s.nicht to the quntisierten macroblocks or motion s.nicht filled coefficients in the signal, you will receive no more away.
Admittedly, my VHS comparatively little was deliberately exaggerated ... exaggeration but you know, makes clear. But we are in half a year to talk about how far away the horizon is yet .... I think a switch will be made in November when Apple transfer their manager together with his new Final Cut Pro version.

@ ghost
My first hope for HDMI and I'm quite confident if I have a look at how many DSP's as it sits with. With DP, I would not so sure, because it is not DVI komp. is a proprietary and synonymous (Philips) aufgepropft copy protection and is not HDMI compatible. ... but we schun'n times.

Antwort von Schleichmichel:

"The Tale of the 15 Mbit limitation thus belongs to the land of legends."

Naja. But if the camcorder is not currently available more spit, the benefits you know that it was better in theory, relatively little. And of firmware updates for devices that are older than 1 1 / 2 years, I dream no longer.

Or am I mistaken there somewhere?

Antwort von WoWu:

.. no, you are not wrong, only then would the child I so synonymous with the name and do not say this was AVCHD.
Especially this is so, what I have always synonymous in the forum trying to convey that clearly differentiate between what is and what the company "verscherbeln want. AVCHD is obviously a wide field for the manufacturer to provide us an "x" for a "u" effect. But just so synonymous is the possibility of such a platform that you want behind the rows of glossy brochures looks.
Furthermore, one can only synonymous when one knows the basis of the characteristics of firms differ .... Incidentally, this is true at synonymous with NLE's.
But ... We are working on it.
Incidentally, I understand your argument synonymous ... I would not necessarily synonymous, the first series to buy and it is likely that the manufacturer synonymous through the implementation of higher level is the way forward AVC still want to keep something open .... That's why I say synonymous at the moment it is still a good half a year to lean back and the head of his drum HDV Recorder abnudeln ...

Antwort von Jan:

But it is unusual, if at all Canon & Sony brochures, catalogs, general, web sites, manuals and always have the speech of 15 Mbit / sec at best quality is?


Antwort von WoWu:

.... best quality for this camera .... Marketing award.

I can only s.den MPEG4 standard and keep saying: System bandwidth 24 Mbit / s (+ sound): For MPEG4 Part 10 H.264/AVC, Level 4.0, 3.2, 3.0 (6,9,13,18) Mbit / s
Audio Level 4, 3.2 = 64-640 kbit / s, Level 3 PCM 1.5 Mbps

Furthermore, even in the joint publications of Panasonic and Sonyvom 13th July 2006 is the speech of 25 Mbit / s.
If you like someone a 15 Mbit / s Camera will turn on ... they simply let the shelves when it was not a clerical error.

Antwort von Jan:

I've not attack Wolfgang.

Only unusual that Canon and all its documentation Sonyin probably tell crap again?

Ok, where SR 7 is so synonymous in the front Full HD a sticker on it - is just a lie.


Antwort von Jan:

Oh, incidentally, still - in the HG 10 Corel software supplied is for Win PC.


Antwort von WoWu:

... No Jan, you do the wrong, not even telling the crap, they have withdrawn from the palette of a scaling scalings only sought out the parameters from their for support tools, the banbreite and the available storage media, the optimum for this device , in the context of a product strategy fits.
In other words: only something simple, so that later we still have the opportunity to offer a better model.
I think they have the 13 Mbps version of the palette is selected as a first compromise.
That's why I say yes, AVCHD is scalable, which means but not that the quality AVC generally at 15 Mbit / s stops!
Here are the conclusions drawn have been .. AVC = 15 Mbit / s system = bad. That's it. someone such a possible compromise in its cameras installs just synonymous must be evaluated.
In other words, the cameras can not be what actually AVC at a data rate comparable to HDV can achieve ...

Antwort von WoWu:

... or forget:
Full HD, so the Resolutionhat nothing with the data to do so. Just as with Resolutionetwas sharpness has to do.
The limiting factor is the depth of processing of each pixel and the quantity of tools, since MPEG is nothing more than a collection s.Tools, which serve to image editing. Because I can use many tools, or just little and my pixels are then just "roughly trimmed.

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