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Camcorder CES 2008 und Bildformate (1080i, 1080/24p)

CES 2008 camcorder and picture formats (1080i, 1080/24p)

Frage von Johannes B.:
Januar 2008

Hello. I hope very much on the help of experienced videographers, I could synonymous after a long Internet search no satisfactory answer.

I would like to see like a new camcorder (Full-HD recording to memory card if possible) to buy. My previous favorite was the SonyHDR-SR12. Now I read at Sony that this camcorder can record only interlaced. Since my experience movements (DV converted to MPEG for DVD) to major (expensive) TVs often presented with schlieren and synonymous always be problematic, if the picture is frozen on average to be (there's always a tremor such as when moving leaves, etc.), I find 1080/24p/25p/30p (at the current Panasonic or Canon models) generally very interesting.

Now, I have read in many forums that this format should be forgotten, as much bucking movements. Who can I report this from experience or a link test to send pictures?
I understand movies are synonymous with 24 fps recording and this bucking on screens in my experience no. Liquid movements here, as in interlaced images. (That can certainly s.De-interlace methods are used television, I have however been several fairly expensive test equipment may be)

I look forward to a reply. Thank you!

Antwort von Johannes B.:

Sorry. Another Addendum: The bad experiences with interlace images I have on LCD TVs made. 50Hz-tube screens are not the problem.
Yet the question: Should you prefer to record 1080i or 1080/24p?

Antwort von Musti:

I am not a professional, but would like to see synonymous this year, an HD camcorder to buy.

The question whether 50i or 25p only you can probably answer because the best is quite subjective. There are people who see Ruckler where others see nothing ...
A problem arises when the frequency of your screen to the frame rate does not fit, ie 25p on a LCD, the internal works with 60Hz, it could act funny, because it would necessarily be a few frames longer than others to show what an uneven movement means.

We penetrate a little deeper into the matter:
A movie consists solely of individual images that are quickly shown. However, our brain is not a series of individual images looks, but a movement, you need the Stroboskopeffekt (see wiki), namely that between the nearly identical pictures dark. (In order for us to light the dark light does not flicker as a feel, a picture in the movies even more hidden in between, with the after-image effect (inertia of the eye) to help ...)

This means that we see in movies Picture - Picture nix - nothing - ... so fast that our brain interprets as movement frames. The important thing is that our perception apparatus "trigger" is.

This trigger is missing when you view s.LCD, which is constantly lit, and it may be that the brain now, where it possibly more than in the movie gets, fast movements, where the frames differ too much, no longer with a movement and as an associate Jerkiness perceived.

One last aspect seems to be the video format used to be - according to information produced camcorder the Canon HV20 in 25p mode, beautiful film - the Canon HG10 (AVCHD) in the same mode jerky allegedly - an artifact of the AVCHD encoding? I can, I have not properly explained.

I watch movies on projector (not synonymous triggering) with progressive playback of - of a Faroudja DCDi Interlacer - and I like it both with 50i material (no comb through good deinterlacer) as synonymous movie DVDs that are effectively only 25 frames per second that appear to me to be redundant (which is why I am triggering the above theory does not really verify)

Thus, we are so smart as before: The visually separate it clarified.

Antwort von Johannes B.:

Thank you very much for the informative and detailed answer. Together with further information which I now found I have a back of zunhemend again from 25p. Then look for the SonyHDR-SR12 with viewfinders.
One question I have (on if they re certainly very difficult to answer): is it worth the wait because of 60p (this is already been vorraussgesagt). As the development is indeed fairly steadily so it is sometime easy to buy. But would you say that this is a huge step that one should wait? For me was the jump of S-VHS to DV a good time a lot of money into a new camera to invest. Currently, however, I completely lose the overview ... Yes, finally I will not invest in a format that is already next year will be laughed at ....

Antwort von WoWu:

John ...

Between interlaced and progressive in recent years far too many ditches have been fighting ausgefochten.
The decision of the broadcaster, however, as a future television system in Europe to introduce 720p50. The first cameras are already for some time on the market, if not synonymous in the lower class consumer.

It is already so, as the host said it, every method has its advantages and disadvantages. Some see effects, if they want to see that others do not and who wants to see something, it becomes synonymous seen.
The best solution seems to me that the compromise that the EBU since gone to.

Synonymous, but the fact is that the supply industry for highly integrated de-interlace chip production has greatly reduced and it is suspected that the television industry in future TV devices, these components will probably save.

Antwort von ich wieder (Gast):

I would like to synonymous a good 720/50p-Camera - but something comes in the consumer area? When we see that the HV20 highly synonymous only slightly over 600 lines creates a picture 720x1280 would actually perfectly adequate - all with beautiful pictures would 50p.

But I wonder if there is such a thing will be? There are now so a couple of 720p devices that were but in Picture and / or handling is not convincing.

If you look at the SonySR11 watch, but all signs are again on the largest possible numbers: 10.2 Mpix photos - with a sensor of 5.6 Mpix - is almost Werbeunfug. Just want to probably the most synonymous prefer 720 to 1080 instead of the camera for you. And I wait in vain for my dream to 1300Euro camcorder.

Eigtl. I want my summer to a fixed memory (SDHC)-HD camcorder growth (because there is no noise), but neither Panasonic SD5 Canon HF100 yet still SonySR12 convince me fully ...

Here's a question that for me the importance of camcorders Buying is:
In contrast motifs with variations: Should we both Aperture as synonymous manual shutter can (currently only Panasonic), the aperture or the area code? (Ie, the shutter will not be longer or shorter depending on the light?).

If aperture code ranges - (as in the workshop is Slashcam) - then what is the advantage of Aperture and shutter independently adjust them?

Antwort von Helloweenie:

If you have not convinced you need to delve deeper into the pockets or omissions accepted.

Convince me even cameras to 20,000 euros, not entirely. Maybe I would be synonymous with the 100,000 euros solution is not completely to peace and would grumble. The optimal camera was not yet invented. Is actually the best ever invented anything?

I think I'm too critical ...

Antwort von WoWu:

@ I again (guest)

You're lying with your summary entirely correct. Most think that the more pixels, the better. Unfortunately, this is wrong, because then the pixels are getting smaller and the images s.einer specific pixel size, is always worse. In addition, the presentation by a lot of interpolations run because Resolutions or format is not correct. The result is then just pictures that otherwise could have been better.
But it is true synonymous what you're saying that buyers just on the very superficial arguments fall sale. Colorful stickers, many pixels and colorful images .... This git is a whole handful of reasons why the images with a different dissolution rate can be better. And HDTV (television) is no more than 720p in the next 10 years.
The question will come ... 50p yes, I think very soon, because it no later than 2010, synonymous in the TV equipment must be established and a Camcorerkompartibilität TV is essential. No man would buy more parts if they are not the least TV quality would reach.

Regarding your question, Aperture / Shutter is such a thing, because both affect the pictures. When you have the shutter Strop effect, besides the frequency can not change during operation and when you have the Aperture Diffraction blur with increasing light.
Example: http://www.auberge-tv.de/GYHD-100/Erfahrungsbericht.html
What you need is something like:
But there are of course not in the consumer area.

One can therefore rotate and turn, it will probably still take a while until it really good camcorder will. What worried me s.meisten, is the constant miniaturization of sensors. Therefore, I believe that all the small chips in the future, cheap consumer devices will land and the Pro-Sumer devices larger items will have ... However, synonymous significantly more expensive and you the distance to the Pro devices shrink.

@ Host
I can not say that it is not some cameras in the price per class is pretty good ... but synonymous since the margin is fairly large, but s.rd TE 40 is the better choice and the qualities above all really good. For example, the AJ-HPX2100 mach very excellent pictures. But as synonymous, it is obviously synonymous and especially with the combination of optics, because the vote has not always better synonymous Optics makes better pictures. That sounds like a contradiction ... but it is not. So in the correct composition is sometimes the advantage synonymous in the price.

Antwort von wieder ich (Gast):

I did yesterday, the current models viewed again, a foretaste of the CES 2008-models to get.

In principle, would be the SonySR11 my camcorder, so I'm unsure of is:

* Touch Screen - eigtl I do not like to hold on display - for manual focus, it is totally awesome ... . I hope that the most important settings via the wheel gets

* MW no adjustable shutter, and shutter and aperture independently even less

* Canon significantly longer compared to the same pixel size => Lowlight worse behavior? Even worse is that no 25p mode exists => even worse lowlight?

* AVCHD codec: The Canon HG10 wrote CCInfo that Canon implementing a visibly better than Sony, with less artifacts. Whether this is synonymous to the SR11/12 true?

* I would prefer the micro front as above

Other hand, annoys me about Canon Hf10/100 that I have no viewfinders (synonymous if claiming otherwise, I am afraid bright sunlight), it is the LCD Resolutionziemlich small, and the Vergrößeerung as Fokussierhilfe is not the synonymous yellow from the egg ... he has not synonymous Intelligent contrast control ... (at least not mentioned)

For me the Panasonic lacks micro entrance, I'm also skeptical about the pixel shift technology ..., vswo the Lowlight behave better is not synonymous ....

Hmm, there is a quality of handling Knaller JVC or Samsung?

Hope you can yes, if you are not synonymous dran believe ....

Antwort von ich wieder (Gast):

Thanks for the hint Wowu Auberge on TV. We know, however: some still know the laws of physics ...

"WoWu" wrote:
@ I again (guest)

What worried me s.meisten, is the constant miniaturization of sensors. Therefore, I believe that all the small chips in the future, cheap consumer devices will land and the Pro-Sumer devices larger items will have ... However, synonymous significantly more expensive and you the distance to the Pro devices shrink.

There are not only the sensors, there are the synonymous Lenses (astrophysicist so synonymous build ever smaller telescopes, because the sensors are getting better and not so much light to be collected ;-), synonymous and the controls (Canon HG10-atrocious ) and the Viewfinder - if available (Canon HR10/HV20 - ähm tja hab ichs sometimes even managed to see what ...).

For someone like me, now is not the professional film and is not synonymous week filming, but the other, slowly moving away from point-and-shooter wants to stand out, this trend is somehow stupid. The professional models with the physically meaningful sensor sizes and somewhat controllable camera settings are too expensive and partly synonymous too large, the consumer cameras are increasingly becoming point-and-shoot-and-do-not think-about-any-more - cameras. Stay still, I have myself to tinker, but it is too complicated ...

Antwort von Johannes B:

I'm just like you. When I looked about 8 years prior to my last camera bought me the decision was fairly easy. The question format was not as elevated in the consumer area eh DV only came into question, but there was a great choice s.anspruchsvollen cameras. At the time I converted about 2000EUR give an output and Camera with many manual settings and get Anshclussmöglichkeiten. Today this area is really missing entirely. Either you buy for a fully automated 1000EUR Camera (without Viewfinder!) Or you need to invest a lot of what the amateur is already problematic.
There are many storage medium and, above all, new formats and data rates (half of each year something new). I am completely baffled.
Does it make sense even in an interlaced format to invest, it is worth 720p and I renounce the higher Resolutionvon 1080i, I wait for 60p and will ever come? If this aufgebohrt AVCHD or already abandoned? If finally a first version of the AVCHD mastered this format or is anyway only a Zwischenlsöung soon disappears again?
I would like a new camcorder to invest, because my quality of my (really good) DV-camera on my big LCD Television wall completely frustrated. Worein you should invest, if the next few years with the Camera wants to be happy? What would you do? But still prefer to wait 1-2 years?

Antwort von ich wieder (Gast):

In itself, I would say it makes no sense in interlace format to invest - in fact it is a legacy technology, and how WoWu said, is always less in deinterlacer will be invested ...

For me the problem is only that
1. Most products currently use 1080i halt
2. I am with my Canon MV500i have long been dissatisfied am
3. I and my brother's wedding this summer a new eigtl. wished.

Without a specific reason, I would probably still my patience strain next, hoping that next year everything is better and clearer. Just over a year ago I think was not so clear that AVCHD now would be so widespread. However, it seems to me synonymous plausible that the next time synonymous no clarity in the question format will be. More and more is based on H.264, but probably there will always be more "flavors" give ...

In times of global networking and the integration of computers into more areas of life (here, interesting as a TV set) is the agreement on standards will be increasingly difficult - because computers can do, you have no more than a small update to install, and has dominated the video encoding XYZ Calculator Places of Taste 12b copy with 1245, which uses soandso video portal ...

Hopefully I am vastly mistaken.

Whether 1080/50p or 720/50p, I actually no preference (I would prefer 720, because the resolution in my beamer is => hopefully even less scaling), because the true consumer device One resolution is never fully able to 1080p (small and Lens small chip).

For me personally, is a promising SDHC camcorder. Flash memory is always bigger, faster and more popular, soon to become a 32 GB card cheap find, and SDHC is not company specific, such as Memory Stick. If one is damaged, replace it easily, whereas if the hard drive camcorder hard drive is out, you either tinkers around itself or must dispose of everything ..

And I think it is increasingly SDHC camcorder type, and after the initial hype, it is Manufacturer, which is very professional handling and excellent quality to excel ...
But this can of course still a couple of years time.

I think in any case, that man with 720/50p and fully exploited all the functions that you need quite a long happy can be.

Just before the summer is probably nothing more, and then I buy me another one, and am in 2 years once again on whether I do not ...

Antwort von ich wieder (Gast):

I am now almost at the consultation, if I am not a Panasonic SD1 should snap. The eigtl. has everything except one viewfinders, and even a large optics and large chips.

But on the other hand, it is the first generation AVCHD with a few problems, and newer AVCHD get out more ...


Antwort von WoWu:

@ I again (guest)

Hello ... I'm there again and I see you do the thing you really not easy.

The many questions as to whether a format I can finally hold now with: answer Yes, because H.264 is finally an overarching standard. This is something we had not been FBAS times more.
He is mature, through the knowledge of MPEG-2 well known and very stable.
I think we will be really long to do and he will have more than one camera generation survive.
If he only holds as long as the previous MPEG2, so it will be more than 10 years.
I know all of the HDV-lovers are now back on the palm, but in MPEG 2 is not new at least more developed and before I would buy something, of which I am now pretty sure can say that the supply in all respects declines would I prefer to buy something, of which I know that the support increases, synonymous, or just because I (with) one of the first would be.
See it in times of athletic Page ... to the others, only in one or two years to buy (have to), you have considerable experience. This is definitely a preference.
Sure, not everything is perfectly supported ... but it can only get better and not like in the old systems ... with poor security.
Shock to see and things sporty ...

Antwort von WoWu:

But even a brief word on the cheap memory cards ...

Leave you not the fact that any map is usable. There's so much software behind (and it is), the manufacturer of your camcorder is that the cards probably synonymous in the future simply by your camcorder manufacturer will get ... and to make its own prices. So do not be confused with the market ... There is a significant difference if I save a photo, which is part of an MP3 player or s.Computer started or whether I real-time requirements (video) to do .... therefore, I think the prices are not really significant fall ... as will the Sony's, Panasonics, etc. have a new source of revenue have saved.

Antwort von Markus WT.:

@ wowu:
I have with great interest read your entries. I see many things quite sporty. I am happy at first synonymous with restrictions only to be able to work for a period or only with tricks and various additional programs at the post to work.

What concern is with the format. I hope you're right and H.264 is really for the next time through.

If I buy but I introduce myself as the SonySR12 to me because of the facilities of the viewfinder and do quite well - then I just can film in 1080i. Progressive dominates the camera according Sonygar not. Then I may be the problem (so yes, at least the opinion here) that I have in 3-4 years my films on modern screens because of the no longer existing De-Interlace no longer in the best quality show. I simply can not all 1000-1500 EUR few years into a new Camera invest. My last camera I used 8 years - that's fine.

Is it (in good quality and without large losses) possible possibly 1080i material on your computer to convert 1080p, so the problem with the de-interlace chip in the display devices to circumvent? How long does such a computational process? For DV, I have a few years ago for use s.Computer times mmit a de-interlace function played and was never really satisfied. The images were blurred and very easy for problematic shots (low light, large gray areas (eg dark clouds) had artifacts on display. But perhaps has done so much here ...

Antwort von WoWu:

@ Markus

Even if you like the camera is good otherwise, if you such a period in order to bridge want, I really would not (i) more to buy. The EBU has led to their decision-making very extensive investigations, and above all synonymous with regard to de-interlacing and interpolation in different screen sizes and is not in vain to 720, p 1080 or later decision came.
Then I would still prefer to wait until summer. s word will probably still good cameras, which correspond to your requirements are synonymous.
But the whole Konvertiererei I would strongly avoid. Especially as synonymous to the software have to be the case that it generates good results .... this is (unfortunately) for the vast majority of the tools does not approach one in the case. This comes just yet, that you've synonymous Interpolationsverluste when other screen sizes go.
All the prospects of truly excellent photos ...
The first method (long term) is 1080p .... only there is currently neither monitors nor consumer cameras. 1080i is with the described problems.
720p, no preference whether 25 or 50 already exist. Since the format of a TV format defined and decided, is the availability of monitors and ensures the prices are attractive because of its volume.
This is the question: What resolution makes sense. A man has approximately 140000 vision cells. so that he can therefore details of ca.0, 2 mm to one meter costs. From the size of the TV unit and the distance you can now calculate what Resolutionvom the eye is still exercise. Join the fun at times ... You'll be surprised.

Antwort von j.t.jefferson:

"WoWu" wrote:
... But the fact is synonymous to the supply industry for highly integrated de-interlace chip production has greatly reduced and it is suspected that the television industry in future TV devices, these components will probably save.

The fact is synonymous to the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it.

You may not believe what is advertised ...

According to recent statements have been various other production processes drastically reduced (eg, the Mini DV cassette) ...

And supposedly there should be no new HDV synonymous devices anymore (funny: the two "leaders" have any ever announced a new device - HV 30 and HC 9 - ok it was more times, but here was synonymous Mr. Wunderlich wrong). It is very likely that the flash recording ultimately will prevail - but the predicted frame wrong here.

So it is very likely that you look at your Interlaced - images synonymous in 5 or 6 years s.neuen devices can see the ...

Antwort von WoWu:

.... said the mysterious unknown and placed his glass back on the shelf, because otherwise he had no solid sources ....

Antwort von Markus WT.:

@ WoWu:

Thank you - your entries really help me next. Some questions remain: What should the camera in the future because you can: 1080p/25 or 1080p/50? 1080p/25 there are probably already at the last camcorders, or I'm mistaken there? If because p/50 come from? As a standard TV? Is that still as AVCHD?

Until the summer, I can well wait. But if by then what does? I would not, of course, wait several years - especially since I am afraid that my DV Camera not durchhält ... It has been quite a few shots on the speedo ... The dropouts are increasing and actually would be a new head drum due

Many greetings

Antwort von Bernd S.:

Hello. I just really frightened. I have before me half a year, a television bought and extra care to ensure that any future standards can - I have been advised accordingly synonymous.

The television can
1920 x 1080i

It is said that the standards are the future. Now what I read of 50p and 60p. Did I just EUR 3000 for a device invests that now is again nearly obsolete. Are there no standards anymore? I buy nothing more soon.

Will I be the new television or BlueRay discs with 60p shots no longer on the device can see?

I would be very grateful for a reply. I'm just totally frustrated.

Antwort von WoWu:

@ Bernd
@ Markus

Bernd, no reason to be frustrated ... the mills in Germany are known to rotate more slowly than elsewhere.

Perhaps once again to correct position:
The EBU has its members (74 broadcasters in 54 countries) as recommended 720p50 HD format and introduced at a later date, to convert 1080p50.
This has a variety of reasons ... Who is interested (Book below).
But it is quite unlikely that before 2015, taking place in Germany when the public service in 2010 in the first begin with HD ... but it will just be 720p50.
For 1080p50 to my knowledge, there is still synonymous currently no monitors in the consumer market.
So, Bernd, lying with you, at least 720p for TV ever properly ..... if, yes if it is synonymous 50p-fitness.
And when the 1920 is not the question of whether the television is, but the question must be whether it synonymous "natively" dissolves, as if he synonymous horizontal pixels of the crowd has. Because this is like 1440 ... because the anamorphic pixel just pulled into the wide. This results in more detail but not what HD finally lives.
You see, we must cshon very closely if you are not into the marketing traps would like to grope. But yes you can when your TV gets another look.

Markus ..
A 1080p50 camera, you'll now synonymous still do not get and you have yourself to answer the question as to whether you Resolutionund TV with a performance of a movement 720p50 or whether you get the 1920 (still provisional) really want to run.
Hd 720 is completely defined and is of the companies usually synonymous according to the standards. Also in AVC.
AVCHD is herein synonymous with established HD requirements. But not in 1440, because this is not an HD standard is 1920 and the actual standard of all manufacturers is not so satisfied, as it appears in the standardization actually meant. With FullHD will then create the impression that it is now quite good. But that is synonymous explains why many here in the forum to see no difference ... they can not synonymous, because in the packaging that it is not what they expected and what they were suggesting.
Real 1920x1080 looks much better and you can see the difference immediately to 1440. The question is just, I see it still, when I half-distance in TV am, my eyes can also use the advantage or not ... When I sit s.Schnittgerät ... certainly, but each must figure out for itself whether the advantage of TV-viewing distance is actually implemented.
Otherwise I buy a great technique with only half the risk of things to get and do not see it once.
Again briefly AVC.
MPEG4 / H.264/AVC in Germany is the HDTV standard. It is AVCHD (company name) is derived. The Blue-Ray Consortium has extensive trial found that a good codec at 16 Mbit / s no difference to the original film shows what MPEG2 at about 24 Mbit / s would be required.
Since the MPEG2 trailer now talk of greater compression or not, this is in any case the result and I would rather no preference, how much something technically is compressed, when I no longer recognize the original.
And the association BlueRay is not any test sheet fill the colorful pages ...

But ... I would my camcorder choice, as long as possible or move out, because currently it looks as if the industry is still developing their drawers auskehren ... and lots of older pre-first man s.den bring.
Hence my recommendation: buy the latest one you like AVCHD, which can 720p50. usually the cameras can be a synonymous fashion 1080er. resulting Optics that this resolution can be, which in turn benefits to the image quality has 720er. 1080 If you want to do, make sure that you get 1080p25. If you have the sensor choice, I would prefer CCD CMOS front and 3-chip 1 chip before and the greater the / chip / s is / are (in mm, not only in pixels), the better.
And if you all really only interested, I can really recommend the book below. There is small with everything all contexts inside ... because your camcorder bes

Antwort von Jan:

Well yes there is another discussion going on.

I've already said several times, the times yet again, especially if it is around 1080 50i.

A number of the 50 Hz LCD Television just can not move properly, because the liquid crystals are not
come afterwards - Schlieren Education / Nachzieheffekt. By doubling to 100 Hz can be improved, but even better to use a plasma TV, which has problems with its fast response times usually not.

I have very different qualities of output AVCHD HDV & HD TVs s.diversen day.

The Full HD nonsense, I can only connect Wolfgang. I have a Sony original prospectus rausgekramt, which again shows that even in the category at Henkelmann HDV is cheated.

It's about the good SonyHDR FX 7, each ClearVid CMOS has 960x1080 pixels, the CMOS is not the Resolutionvon 1440x1080, which some users suspected.

When I think Sony should trust documents, is no AVCHD at 1080 / 50 P.

1080 / 60i
1080 / 50i
1080 / 24P
720 / 60P
720 / 50 P
720 / 24P
480 / 60i
576 / 50i

Antwort von ich wieder (Gast):

I probably really should stretch my times to obtain a login ...

@ WoWu: the reference to flash memory cards, I found it very interesting.

So I am athletic, wait until all times have been tested, and then decide. And then when I'm big time and earn much money is in the video world, everything clearer.

And what Jan says, makes appetite for Sony. Well let's see ...

@ WoWu: Your advertising works quite well, I lack only the last click ...

Antwort von Arne B.:

@ WoWu:
Thank you for the detailed answers. Personally, I have helped you most. I think I will be me the next time your book growth times. Furthermore, I will probably at 50p (whether 720 or 1080) to wait. What is, if in the meantime, a great holiday present? Can camcorder actually synonymous fee for a few weeks somewhere borrow?

I too am very confused about the many standards, Resolutions, p and i, etc.
During my last TV purchase, I have extra on the HD Ready - Logo important. How much it counts, I was at the latest with the Introduction of the HD-Ready 1080p logo clearly. So buyers can be frustrating ...

I hope that the time machine can play 1080p at the same time are capable of 1080i output as a signal to be delivered. Otherwise, I know many friends now, where my films are not run ... Will be so?

Antwort von WoWu:

@ Jan

This is good information about the ClearVid .... there are documents, because it is so far in this sequence was not aware that only has 960x1080.

Regarding 1080i50 (the Sony is the notation, ie 50 fields / sec) or the EBU spelling (50 frames / sec)?

Also, the list regarding the format is slightly like Sony because in H.264 are now 1080i/25 and 30, 1080p/24, 25.30, 720p24, 25,30,50 and 60 are defined. 1080p50 is in the Working Group. (The SD format, I have omitted)
The heist of the 10 formats are 2 interlaced and progressive and 8 p is the ninth in the works.
The table that you've linked table is not an official but a list of companies companies AVCHD ... as an advertisement with other words.
This is with very cautiously.
That in 1080p/50 or even H.264 AVCHD should not go is great mischief in a bitstream of up to 900 Mbit / s is defined ... Obviously these can be realize framerate.

With these fancy names like "BIONZ" topped the times again, the company marketing departments ..... a concept behind what everyone else is suspect. In general, it is currently used for functions such as object detection applied and has little to do with quality, but perhaps interpret the other companies already again.
Generally synonymous, I see a considerable strength in the addressability of each pixel in the CMOS. Theoretically, for each individual pixel as an "aperture" can be created, with the appropriate options. (probably is with the "D-Range Optimizer (DRO)" meant .... (again as a great marketing term) .... I'm waiting synonymous only thing, which is the first camera no longer has a mechanical aperture and thus the aperture effect eliminated.

The new camera models are we still a lot s.neuen features and provide the distance to the professional cameras will always be low ... Specken that they s.andern bodies (viewfinders, handling, etc.)
But the CMOS development is promising.

@ I again (guest)

I think that you can get a good camera .... at any rate, I hope you like it, because you look at the decision very carefully thought.
And as far as advertising is concerned ... the jerk who is missing you get the latest, if you're wondering what to do with all the sensors as a Bewandnis has ... alone and do not really find conclusive answer, because it has a whole chapter and the topic is explained in great detail-smile -
No, Seriously ... Information will be increasingly important to companies because they are always rare and always give more to "send" concepts and build the theme is already confusing enough.
There is shortly to hold a book on cinematography ... everything, but everything really synonymous in connection with the "film look".
(So much advertising had will still be times). Nothing for ungut.

Antwort von j.t.jefferson:

"Jan" wrote:

- The main processor BIONZ

he has in the photo world 2007 already showed the image noise to grips with and a higher resolution even at higher sensitivities to

Now have even more extra times at dpreview.com nachgeschaut, the results of the cameras with BIONZ image noise in terms of enthusiasm but not really. Since I see no progress.

Antwort von Jan:

AVCHD Info.Org be the original site of his supporters, with the technical possibilities. Annoying is that there not be entirely correct, 25 P has so happens to be the 10th HG

The BIONZ processor, I can only photograph in the world to assess the gibts there as early as 2007. The comparable models Digicam W 55 (Real Imaging Processor) and W 80 (BIONZ) really separated a few points, especially at high ISO and Gain values. Panasonic did with the Venus Engine III synonymous for a positive effect ensured. Innovations are not always just blabla, sometimes synonymous technologically better what out. That should get you in here so Slashcam now know - as the only hard adore for AVC.

How big the difference between the Enhanced Imaging Processor and the new BIONZ in the video world has to be seen.

@ ClearVid CMOS - was the original Sony Academy prospect, unfortunately, is back in the prospectus expressly "Reproduction and copying, synonymous extracts, only with the written permission of Sony Germany.
On the web I find only old leaflets.

Yes it is there so - ClearVid CMOS sensor 960x1080 pixels.


Antwort von Jan:

Perhaps the user is not a comparable model (1 / 2, 5 "with 7 million pixels) with different processors made.

I think he has only general comment on the processor, and perhaps Panasonic Venus Engine III thus compared (the head).

Still Color Image (a popular photo magazine with over 30 years experience) awarded the W 80 (W 90) at ISO 400 to almost 1 / 3 better Gesammtnote as 30 (W 55) to 41 points of 100th

I probably should but here are photos ....


Antwort von WoWu:

@ Jan

I'm no "AVC adore" .... I know just good to know that I am now 15 years with digital TV and 40 years with television itself had employed.
I agree with you completely because new developments have often brought progress .. I can not just fancy words s.diese used, because they never really say exactly what is behind it and you always need to find out laboriously, making one vendor because now happy again ....
I'm just not the "normal" buyers, on the colorful "Sticker" hereinfällt but would quite like to know whether there sand in my eyes is dispersed.
But you are absolutely right, news mean for me, nothing bad.

Antwort von Bernd E.:

"Jan" wrote:
... FX 7, each ClearVid CMOS has 960x1080 pixels ...
"WoWu" wrote:
... This is good information about the ClearVid .... there are documents, because it is so far in this sequence was not aware that the only 960x1080 has ...

Whether you run it as "documents" can apply, I do not know, but the actual Resolutionder FX7 is really not a state secret. Even so called Sony 1.12 per megapixel sensor resolution as gross, what with Adam Riese not calculate is 1440x1080. The actual CMOS Resolutionvon just those 960x1080 inter alia be found here:

Gruß Bernd E.

Antwort von WoWu:

@ Arne

A lot of it will be with "mixed units" have to do and I think that one synonymous later (and it was only when Sony) De-Interleaser as HW gets .... synonymous the NLE's are still as long as the walk up the old tools are no longer running and more new tools None writes ... So think about the compatibility, I would because I just do not do.
Otherwise it will look like when the TV sets the codec or format directly accept ... then it again depends on which format (synonymous to the interface) are supported .... But that again is really a separate issue. But with HDMI you can see how interfaces into the future format world to intervene and not simply more transparent everything "over scoop" ...
But you also do not yet have an idea.
By renting equipment is a matter ... someday you'll buy anyway ... and every time, no preference when it comes, is always either too late or too early. This must not be so doggedly see.

Antwort von WoWu:

@ Bernd
Thanks for the answer, but if I've seen nothing about, is it makes the Z1, but as far as I know still do not Exmore ClearVid sensor, the ClearVid had since worked with a 6:1:1 yes Farbmaske. And just this, resulting Resolutionzu find, so it went past me and I did an Exmore with the CV mask yet no concrete and reliable information is found ... With the forums, I would be more cautious as synonymous. Nothing against forums, but when I search on the statements would build ....
So, we schau'n times ...

Antwort von Bernd E.:

"WoWu" wrote:
@ Bernd ... if I've seen nothing about, is it to the Z1 ...

How are you on the Z1? The first link is about the V1 (the point at issue in the identical sister of the FX7) and the title of the second is "SonyFX7 and the new CMOS sensor. It may be quite late, but what I link, I know just enough ;-)

Gruß Bernd E.

Antwort von Axel:

"WoWu" wrote:
There is shortly to hold a book on cinematography ... everything, but everything really synonymous in connection with the "film look".
(So much advertising had will still be times). Nothing for ungut.

A businesslike, straightforward, technical book on video would be times welcome. It should however be difficult for many of your often very specific arguments to follow, so they are your conclusions will simply accept them. I hope therefore that you are with "Everything, absolutely everything but synonymous" no detail threatenest obsession, but a good overview. Videographers, according to the "look" thirsty, are not engineers.

Antwort von WoWu:

Well, Axel, it will not "take a green filter and then .." of course, but it illuminates the issues fairly closely Optics, Lenses, Resolutions, of course, synonymous adapter and the whole drum and turn. Memory and the problems around the whole issue of Cinema, but synonymous trends, where to go and that video quite a lot Bals, of that which previously could only film, synonymous of video will be removed.
Practitioners will say again ... Shear's Who? I take my camera and make great pictures ... They ... The Book is just for people who are synonymous want to have background knowledge and not only through the viewfinders schau'n and to press the button to ... and cinematography do not hear with the Camera to ... there is still a whole world behind, starting with the closing date until finally, to presentation .... Many also believe, so they buy an adapter and then comes back out of movies .... Unfortunately not. But knowledge is synonymous Ingenieurgesellschaft yes, at least nothing Verkehrte ... synonymous if it is perhaps only in the second approach understands.
But it is not a Bedienugsanleitung ... "how do I make movies:"
But I am still working on it ... Suggestions are always welcome and thanks for the advice, I will try to heed.

@ Bernd
Sorry .. I have not in a hurry really just exactly enough hingesehen ... of course that is no allegation and was fully my fault.
Thanks again for the hint.

Antwort von Jan:


I'm not sure whether the data from the forums are really sure, so do not stop talking. In Sony.Academy gibts some of the more intensive brochures runterldaden, only mine of the FX 7 is still not there.

Here are the photos, I'll give to at ISO 400 the difference is slight, at ISO 800 the BIONZ demonstrated his ability. The W 55 was even at the test pictures, the lower level of compression, both 1 / 2, 5 "CCD with 7 million pixels.


Antwort von FalkoW:

One question I have (especially s.Wolfgang, which seems so good bets):

Suppose I buy now a 1080i camcorder. Sometime come out 1080p display and are perhaps due. I can not (to my previously produced films continue to be) of 1080/50i after 1080/50p umrendern approved?

What a deinterlacer in Television schaftt in real time, the computer (if not real time is needed) but rather in better quality calculate and interpolate can.

Would not that be a possibility (even if at times deinterlace chips will be waived)? Then we should not be synonymous to leave these chips. You never know (if the film is s.Freunde or customers verlauft) the quality of their machines have ...

Or is the whole rather unrealistic?

I would greatly appreciate a response of professionals looking! Thank you!

Antwort von WoWu:

Hello Falko
.. First of all thank you for the trust, but here in the forum are a whole bunch of "really good professionals, all very good questions, but I will gladly respond to you because you addressed me so directly searched.

Only once we have a really long time have no problems, interlaced s.Markt devices to be found. It is not that of today, they disappear overnight.
Basically you can but obviously you convert movies to p, but did 1080i/50 (old spelling) of course, only 25 frames / sec. When 1080p/50 then against 50 frames / sec.
About the advantages or disadvantages is, I think it all has been said repeatedly. Therefore, no one worried about his films have ... The changes you will probably continue until St.Nimmerleinstag can do. Likewise, you probably will still synonymous in 30 years, commit some MPEG2 decoder can perform ... then synonymous works, because these are the benefits of standards.

Antwort von FalkoW:

@ Wolfgang: Danke Dir fast and competent. And even if not arrogant Beginners ask. This is a great culture here in this forum. SUPER!
A small question, I have yet, what with jerky movements actually more directly filmed 1080/25p or 1080/50i which was deinterlaced? (and why)

Antwort von WoWu:

Oha, da do you now but a question .... as blunders ....
Actually everything jerky as strong, both because there are 25 pictures, only the interlace of eyesight is not so much perceived as bucking.
Similarly, you could at 25p during the presentation phase, a brief pause ... that would be the principle of cinema ....
The question is why in the "inertia" of our psyche to look ... but this is now really too long to explain.
But well, it is assumed that i feel is unnecessary.
But .... Of course, it has the disadvantages of Verkammung, because quasi-2 half-image is captured and the movement of the object between the two (half) recordings, do not stop ... therefore looks as funny. Anything that stands still is sharp and everything that moves is a double image ... Old TVs are the phosphorus by the afterglow something hidden, but today's monitors are as "hard iron". Therefore the EBU so synonymous as a television system for P, but with 50 images / s pronounced, because then you get two of the best systems. A decision I can see fine and although yes trenches between p and i camps have opened, the experts are agreed that at least.

Antwort von antje:

jan, wowu and the rest of the "luggage" I am fascinated because I had hoped in the other forum ne antwort to find and now give it to me.
jan, as I said my question was nearly answered. it was me an amateurish kommentar allowed:

whether i or p, 50 p or 60 p wait is bl ... d, because when I get my HD ready TV set (Pioneer) before 3 years bought all been talked of synonymous and 1080p hdtv, but except for premiere "wants" to send None .
But the 3 years I do not want to miss, so I evaluate "all" foreninger sr11 pick me, because now I will "enjoy" and not in 3 years. and in the end, it's like with computers purchased today _ and _ old tomorrow

sorry if it is precocious geklungen should have

Antwort von antje:

sorry I've even forgotten what

Contributors in any forum in the stand: that with increasing distance from the TV (> 3x diagonal) is the difference eh no longer sees between i and p

Antwort von WoWu:

@ Antje

I am pleased that you're become conclusive ... Congratulations.
Your pragmatic approach you will be much pleasure ... with just the 3-times the distance you need to read again .... and remember, the higher the resolution, the more dense s.den You must Television to more differences to note .... Have fun with the sr11

Antwort von antje:

hi wolfgang,
sag ich doch.

Antwort von WoWu:

Hi Antje,

True, this is because .... but synonymous bought the expensive advantage of 1080 over 720 flutes goes ... this is really crazy ... the higher the resolution, the more dense it is ran ... might want the company to only sell their giant TV. - Smile -

Antwort von antje:

hi wanted.
ps I've gegoogelt - maybe I stand on expertise, because the more one reads the less you understand.
in the "cheaper" one has already bought the Sonysr11 and commented on.
with us in the north, it comes only in April

until then I will read you and try to understand

Antwort von Dagmar:

"WoWu" wrote:
... this is really crazy ... the higher the resolution, the more dense it is ran ... might want the company to only sell their giant TV. - Smile -

That is only if the customer uses the things synonymous is willing to buy. If not, the diabolical industry to stop sitting in their tender.

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