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Canon Xl-H1: Probleme im

Canon XL H1: Problems in the "Frame Mode"



Frage von Purlywhirl:
Oktober 2006

Hello everybody!

I have the Canon XL-H1 and am very satisfied so far as synonymous with the unit: Handling, image quality, lens, features great but one thing pushes me really mad at me and interested in the cause: In the frame mode recorded material just is not, at viewing on television sets, plasma tube, as synonymous to the side when panning or camera movement, a persistent juddering, blurred picture. This is not observed in interlace mode.
As I look of the frame mode because of its similarity film but definitely better, I would like to know what it has to be with this jerk, and whether there are ways to rectify the situation or to minimize.

S.Rande I recently heard that it is probably synonymous possible to rotate in interlace and to generate an average of frames for later.
What program does this s.besten and how good is the result generally with this method?

I would be very happy about Tips and Reviews for this topic!

Many greetings,

Lars



Antwort von Purlywhirl:

Hmm ..... no one has been synonymous relevant experience?

Is it s.end the fact that I'm standing around a damaged item to me?

I hope not .....

Regards,

Lars



Antwort von Markus:

Hello Lars,

the XL-H1 I can not say anything, but if I am one (which no preference) DV camcorder to a shutter speed of 1 / 25 s stelle (roughly equivalent to 25p) in frame mode, the picture also looks s.Television no longer convincing when moving image content and / or camera.








Antwort von Cocoa.de:

Well, 25stel is just 25stel. With film, usually with 48stel exposure time (24 frames per second Aperture = 48stel + circulation) is being worked, which increases the motion blur. If you are capturing 25fps but now with a 1.000stel-second-Strop has caused a certain effect. Just try to determine the exposure time to adjust to 25stel.



Antwort von Markus:

Motion blur, strobe-effect ... somehow to me closes the connection to the above question.

What do you mean by that?



Antwort von Cocoa.de:

Well if you are in the film with a different high shutter speed are capturing Norma (see Gladiator for example), then one synonymous ensteht jerking / strobe effect



Antwort von Markus:

Sure, but 1 / 25 s are far from 1 / 1000 s. In contrast to the slight movements of 1 / 50 s should be extremely low. In no case, however, as pronounced as I have observed this.



Antwort von wolfgang:

I just do not believe that movies are like the radiator can be compared with our new consumer devices. Here prevent other effects, the jerk, which occur at 24 fps (or) stop at 25 fps on our devices.

Basically, can of course be one of 50i material synonymous 50p or 25p material calculated "- but probably not in line with what comes out when one makes the same recording in this mode.

But if you absolutely want - it will be mentioned again and again Procoder 2 or synonymous AE, which can well. Avisynth kanns synonymous obviously well - but since you have to love scripting.



Antwort von Coca.de:

I thought that if everything is set to automatic. Well no preference. Try it just once. With a 25stel it is just another film with as 50stel. By the way, why do you find the "LOOK" as good, if not do you like about the other, the Rückeln? Michael info@cocoa.de



Antwort von Purlywhirl:

@ Coca.de

Let's put it this way: I have noticed a difference in of the fact whether the camera is moving or whether at a fixed camera position slightly moves WITHIN Picture. Is to say, fast camera movements provoke the judder or smearing of the image. But moves a person in the picture with the camera is firmly established, I can very well throughout the film, "LOOK" attest to what the movements of the actors is appropriate.

Of course, I do not want so everything from the tripod to shoot :-)

Gruß,

Lars



Antwort von pensman:

Here you have to do it with different factoren to declare now, I'd try. The jerk called and shutters can be up to a certain point shutters, however, as far as I know with 1 / 50. otherwise you can not do much, however, because only this one has 50 pictures per second for presentation to the disposal and this image is ranked s.einander see picture where, in the interlaced half frame and to add to the picture. that it is not as feature films shuttert s.den hochschrauben the variable frame rates can u order more pictures exposed in the same time.
can not, however, with the canon. only with the panasonic hdv variable frame rates are solvable, but still no purchase to the ground.
Simply turn in fast changing photos to 50i, then you're on the safe side and area in which that can represent our equipment or reckon out the full screen in the post



Antwort von Axel:

"Purlywhirl" wrote:
In frame mode when watching recorded material just shows on television sets, plasma tube, as synonymous to the side when panning or camera movement, a persistent juddering, blurred picture. This is not observed in interlace mode.


I have been following the thread with great interest. The way I understand the frame mode, there are no full images, so no "1080p" but "1080i" without Halbbildpräferenz, that is so straight and odd lines are recorded simultaneously, but the lines are nevertheless "there." If you would give me the camera for capturing now, I would choose first the default "HDV 1080i, but in the case of Final Cut Pro in the check box field dominance" No "choose. The Effect of you described is similar to when you checked this box in normal interlaced material. Extremely short shutter can not be the reason, since the effect in reality, very discreetly fails, its own road tests with various settings and have shown this. 1 / 25 my opinion is completely unacceptable! Please respond.








Antwort von Schleichmichel:

"Purlywhirl" wrote:
... I can very well throughout the film "LOOK certify" that the movements of the actors far ...


It disguises even up to a certain extent, bad acting. If one actor looks German detective series at once in 50i productions, we can see some play as the bungling. This makes the "finer Resolutionin of time". You see more facial expressions and subtle facial features and exposes faster acting artificiality.

The synonymous explains why Fotomodels usually not any good as an actor, but in stationary photos may well show character.

For your problem ... You seem to really use a crooked shutter speed (maybe). Overexposed, the monitor does not, right?

For if the TV-picture only one bright spot remains, you will notice quite a quick jerk.

@ Coca.de: If you are capturing on film a television or HMI working with flickering light, you need to set only one 24BPS easy Hellsektor of 172.8 °, and you have a shutter speed of 1 / 50. At 1 / 48 then you have light bars in the picture, as a part of the screen doppelbelichtet "will", and HMI pulsating light. Conversely, a portion of the television picture is missing in a shorter shutter speed.



Antwort von Axel:

Ruck ...
What came of it? Good for the frame mode not?



Antwort von Axel:

Ruck ...

The Canon-page I found the following product description:

"The XL H1 is a high quality camcorder
for the professional recording in the
1080i HD format with a frame rate of
either 50i or 25f. Three 1/3-inch CCDs
With each about 1.67 Megapixel ensure the
excellent HD resolution. 20x HD video
Zoom lens, HD-SDI output, genlock --
Sync terminal and time code
Input / output round out the picture.
" Professional 1080i HD format, on -
drawing with a frame rate of 50i or
25f possible "


The jerky images were then properly captured in 1080i?



Antwort von Axel:

Ruck ...
None When responding, I will soon open up a thread in capitals:
SHIT IS SO CANON!



Antwort von Henk:

Guys and going to the movies and watching closely what happens when the camera takes a quick horizontal rotation.
This is nunmal so if one takes only 25 (or 24) phases of movement per second. There is only the choice between stroboskobartikem jerky (Recording with 1 / 50 sec exposure time) or severely blurred (Recording with 1 / 25 sec exposure time) Picture.
That real footage (24Bilder/Sek. At 1 / 48 sec exposure time) jerk a little less than a corresponding progressive video, is for the most part s.der outstanding mechanical aperture in the camera, which adds a slight motion blur.



Antwort von Axel:

"Henk" wrote:
That real footage (...) (...) (...) is less jerk s.der outstanding mechanical aperture in the camera, which adds a slight motion blur.


It governs nothing other than the shutter speed, which is the same result, the shorter, the less BWU.

"Henk" wrote:
This is nunmal so if one takes only 25 (or 24) phases of movement per second.


Not in a significant way in full-screen cameras like the DVX100. Also on your computer you finally see 25 frames. There's jerky when panning? So. I have been interested if the mode at the XL H1 is unusable because of this effect or whether it was processed incorrectly. Apparently this is anyone else interested. I will probably have to rent times the Cam to find out for yourself.



Antwort von Henk:

Thee's the difference between a mechanical shutter and circulating an electronic shutter, as it is available in all popular video cameras clearly, right?
Circulating rotating aperture, and not with infinite speed, but with 24 revolutions per second. Dh. it takes some time, until the movie window is completely covered, which takes place during this time exposure creates a "Miniüberblendung" which mitigates the jerk a little. When the electronic shutter is simply discarded and poignant at the same time a certain portion of the charges on all sensor surfaces to achieve the appropriate exposure time.
Further reasons for the softer judder in film:
fast horizontal pans have a foreground subject in focus, which does not change relative to the pivot position. The background is blurred, the more blurred, the softer the jerking. There are thus synonymous to the tricks of the film makers who know the Unzulänglchkeit their medium.

Yes, synonymous jerk pans on a computer display, as well as on a plasma, LCD or CRT TV?
In short time a test done: White stripes on black background in C4D animation of left to right with 25 fps. Results: There jerky. There must be synonymous!
Basically, and this is physically, then it must always jerk when (not temporally continuous, but discrete exposure thus exposure time is shorter than frame rate / sec. Has taken place).

And that, under the same conditions (such as playback, recording DVX100) is visible less jerky than the Canon so .... then you get a crate of beer to me if you can show me that!



Antwort von Axel:

"Henk" wrote:
Circulating rotating aperture, and not with infinite speed, but with 24 revolutions per second. Dh. it takes some time, until the movie window is completely covered, which takes place during this time exposure creates a "Miniüberblendung" which mitigates the jerk a little.


During the exposure, "says" the movie. The slightest movement would make the recording unusable. During the exposure of the frame is short of the aperture only partially covered. The exposure time is the total time from some customers not covered / uncovered / () partially re-covered as the mechanical shutter of a camera. In between, there is a pause while the image window, completely covered and the next frame is pushed in. A synonymous transition, or a "quasi" transition takes place. The only movement comes from the blurring of the subject or camera movement.

"Henk" wrote:
When the electronic shutter is simply discarded and poignant at the same time a certain portion of the charges on all sensor surfaces to achieve the appropriate exposure time.


By the same outcome. The main difference in the movies is that here, with reflected light with relatively high contrast will be used, allowing an afterglow light parts (response of the retina).

"Henk" wrote:
And that, under the same conditions (such as playback, recording DVX100) is visible less jerky than the Canon so .... then you get a crate of beer to me if you can show me that!


I can not just it. I just say that the jolting of the DVX, or on an LCD is absolutely intolerable. When you mention a generated to assess the effect jerk, I wonder why you are adding no motion blur, as his natural movements.



Antwort von Henk:

The film is, but not the camera and the objects that are the aufbelichtet. This previously mentioned end of the film image is captured a different phase of motion, as s. below the end of the picture.
The see these guys here just the same:
http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=16204

Quote:
The main difference in the movies is that here, with reflected light with relatively high contrast will be used, allowing an afterglow light parts (response of the retina).


And what does this mean for a movie, which we consider on a Television?

Your objection to my experiment is of course correct. But if we compare 3 Animations synonymous with each other (25fps with 50% motionblur, representing 1 / 50 shutter speed), (25fps with 100% motionblur, representing 1 / 25 shutter speed) and (50fps with 100% motionblur, representing 1 / 50 shutter speed), it is clearly a jerk to recognize, and indeed both 25fps animations, while the animation is buttery 50fps. Try this yourself.

Whether something is acceptable or not, but unfortunately can not be determined on the basis of descriptions and is very subjective. Even so, it is apparent from the descriptions of the Threaderöffners that likes the aesthetics of movement in his photographs, he feels it is only this judder during fast movements as disturbing. And that is precisely the description of normal filming. The problem is that people are "progressive" with "better" and "equate quality" without being aware that it means just to halve the time Resolutionzu synonymous, with all the relevant phenomena. So if I now, with these expectations progressive movies, the big disappointment halt in this regard.








Antwort von Axel:

"Henk" wrote:
The see these guys here just the same:
http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=16204


... and emphasize the "very slightly". The basic idea seems to be that each of the lower part of a frame temporally closer to see above is part of the following frames, which should give a slightly more movement continuity - with a break of 1 / 48 sec. The actual transition of film images are there in the projection) in electronic projectors without circulation aperture (and without Dunkelpause in which the film runs continuously like a tape recorder and one electronical controlled prism separates the frames - including the ghost of the following. The aesthetic impression is that of an interlaced picture, although of course the physical film retains a number of other features.

"Henk" wrote:
And what does this mean for a movie, which we consider on a Television?


Nothing. The exposure of an emulsion with its light scattering, the varying color saturation and sharpness is crucial for the look as i or p. The sampling for the NTSC color space has been - at least earlier - with low contrast, pastel-colored copies made.

"Henk" wrote:
... if you have 3 animations together (25fps compared with 50% motionblur, representing 1 / 50 shutter speed), (25fps with 100% motionblur, representing 1 / 25 shutter speed) and (50fps with 100% motionblur, representing 1 / 50 shutter speed), then clearly recognize a jerk too, and although both 25fps animations, while the animation is buttery 50fps. Try this yourself.


That is clear.

"Henk" wrote:
Whether something is acceptable or not, but unfortunately can not be determined on the basis of descriptions and is very subjective (...). The problem is that people are "progressive" with "better" and "high quality" equate (...)


Very good, what you're saying. For me this is a very interesting discussion, and I do not claim to be right. It's like that on a traditional television "P" pictures to jerk tendency to "I" pictures on a plasma but it is good. A plasma but works progressively. Therefore, the images of a VX2000 that are slightly spongy, as images of a DVX. The synonymous you can find out how I did it, and although s.mehreren devices. An HDV bothers me the most basic level, the modest temporal resolution, as I would like to know if the famous "f" mode (which is an "i" mode), at least on the output device (plasma, however, already synonymous computer display) as a quasi - Full screen is treated. Otherwise, it would be for a ton. So we went to me.



Antwort von Henk:

Now it's synonymous interesting to me.
The reason why an interlace-picture appears on a liquid (good) plasma, although the plasma is indeed synonymous progressive, located in the upstream deinterlacer:
This man, assuming he is good not just throw away one field (which both the vertical as synonymous) the time Resolutionhalbiert, but preparing the two fields to such an extent that they are presented in succession. So he creates a 50p Picture. Unfortunately, the whole not as easy as you might think, because they would play the two fields are simply a row, the picture would jump off noticeably, and because the fields represent indeed different areas of the image. One can easily imagine using a 3 lines high object. That would be 2 lines high in Field A, Field B in only one row high.
So complex are necessary for image analysis, which begins synonymous s.and once in outbuildings (Sometimes the picture will see at once jerk, because it is switched to the 25p mode).

It is important now anyway if you already have a progressive 25p recording to communicate this to the Monitor synonymous, so it does not simply remove one field, for here he can show both fields at the same place, but both fields the same time
dar. I basically want to indicate in any meta tags.

It says yes then your observation synonymous to synonymous spongy Picture of the VX2000 (by the good adaptive deinterlacing be caused by the recalculation of the sharpness Halbbildrasters losses, also a progressive picture is superior to its counterpart in the vertical interlace Resolutionum any particular factor)

The DVX shots, however did not have to wander through the circuit and could be displayed natively.

So: If the tags are all set correctly, shows a progressive Progressive Television images synonymous with right. As the industry has thought along time ;-)

My favorite would be 720p50 recording format. For all current and future high-resolution display types are working progressively, and because it is really stupid, in fact, an interlace to use host-based standard. Only 25 frames are to me synonymous just too little, far 720p50 is a very good compromise, large



Antwort von Henk:

Addendum to the monorail stop:
There is actually a "mini-panel instead. The reason lies in the positioning of the beam path: If the orbital aperture lie directly before the picture window so we had the phenomenon as it is synonymous suspects in the Cinematography forum, namely that different areas are illuminated with different phases of motion of the negative.
Well screens but are positioned near the pupil of the beam path, that is almost the point of greatest uncertainty. And here the effect of a partial obstruction of the beam path of only in limiting the amount of light, and not in the local coverage of the film image.
What does this mean for the Comparison circulation Aperture <-> electronic shutter?
While there are only two states in the latter (complete exposure) a complete blackout, the two states in the orbital aperture through a phase associated increase or dimming.
With the impact, as it is described in the Cinematography forum-synonymous.



Antwort von Axel:

A merging of two images through these mini-blende is prevented by the darkening of the Stroboeffekt between MUs reliable. This increase flicker (which is characterized by two or three wing panel in the projection in the frequency and so can alleviate), there are numerous studies which show that it contributes positively to the effect of a film. A projected movies in the interlaced picture looks "dead" from.

But a question about Plasmas and LCDs: How does this switch between two full frames? A darkening it so there probably not.

And whether the frame mode now is good or not, can once again say None.



Antwort von Henk:

Again: There is a "place-and fade-outs on". No fading!

Wing beam aperture is completely free-> full exposure

X wing panel covers for the duration of only a portion of the beam path-> partial (and indeed increasingly weakening) exposure of the image.

Wing panel completely hidden beam-> no exposure

Wing panel is the optical path to and free to re-partial> (and indeed ever-increasing) exposure

etc.

Electronic Shutter: On, Off, On, Off ...

In the LCD, the liquid crystals easily change their state 50 times per second, to model the light.
LCD 's are part of the hold-type, so they clay modeling, the ever-present background light. For the presentation of the motion again causes a problem, but what I can not rationally explain synonymous, I 's got that is synonymous not quite get it. In a recent CT 's was a detailed article read over it.
Regardless of most LCD Television irrsinnigerweise still synonymous with 60Hz be used, which is the representation of movement is also not conducive to grad.
In the plasma that is so similar to the tube device, as the individual Phosphortripel be actively brought to light. The difference between the electron beam, however, lies in the type of intensity modulation. Because the plasma there are only two discrete states: plasma chamber fires or not. Thus, the firing rate determined by the intensity of the transmitted light. Do not ask me but to fire as often.



Antwort von Axel:

Salut Henk.
Thank you for your explanations of plasma technology.

"Henk" wrote:
Again: There is a "place-and fade-outs on". No. There fade (...) wing aperture and optical path for free after re-partial> (and indeed ever-increasing) exposure (...)


I have analog as a very practical idea projectionist of Film. It consists of individual "slides" that can be individually herauschneiden and zoom. Then there is a uniform picture in normal lighting, and with more or less by the movement of the subject and the duration of exposure induced motion blur. The exposure is done partially through the stop motion, but every part of the image in absolute terms, experiences the same exposure time. This timing difference of the non-coverage of top to bottom should not lead to a temporal course, and this would be synonymous fatal, since it would mean that the time flowing through the picture plane, and indeed arbitrary and unnatural. To clarify: Imagine for a camera with an open shutter, which is directed at a person walking, in front of passing a black cardboard with a narrow horizontal slit passes slowly in front of Lens. In the developed picture of the head is at the top left, bottom right foot. The same with a vertical slot: The person is as wide as the Picture.
Without denying that a circulating orifice from the disadvantage of such distortion "to - from" tends to have, the picture becomes much more fully exposed, uncovered. Comparison of a hand that is during a long exposure time skimps front of Lens, makes the point: The hand is not visible, but the exposure time has been shortened ( "Dodge").
The whole idea of when is synonymous professionals brought into play, illogical.

Fade-in, fade out, this is the effect in the projection, and this makes the whole point.



Antwort von Henk:

Okay, Once again slowly:
What happens with the exposure at the moment in which the wing panel has covered exactly half of the beam path?
What happened a short time later, when the wing panel has covered 3 / 4 from the beam?
What happened again a short time later, when the wing panel has covered 99% of the beam path?
You have the camera just not two discrete states of the exposure, both states are linked here of an "up or stopping down.
So you get in terms of the complete exposure time for a weighting of aufbelichteten movement phase. It does not matter much, but it does make a difference.
Transferred to the photograph might s.ehesten to compare with a long exposure with flash. The bulk of the exposure is from the period in which the flash lit up the scenery (windows) is fully released, only a small part comes from the long exposure (aperture circulating the window partially obscured), although this all I care just as long it lasted, but has taken much less light on.
Your reflections on the theory of "different phases of motion s.unterschiedlichen parts of the image are correct!



Antwort von Schleichmichel:

Through the open and close the iris sector but there are no problems. All images of a motion segment also have the same weighting.



Antwort von Purlywhirl:

Grad had noticed that my thread anyway came across resonance.

So my explanation for the "smearing" when panning - mind you need in HDV - HDV s.der GOP Komression lie. As a pivot in HDV mode, yes kompressionsbedingt only an "approximate" estimate of the image content changes occur until the next blanking, I think that this is the reason for the lack of image information, which is perceived as a smear.
Is there drape what? For in the frame mode to DV 16:9 does not see the picture with the dirty half so bad.

MFG!








Antwort von Axel:

Read this not produced.




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