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Oberes statt unteres Halbbild zuerst bei Pal System, kann es sein?

Oberes instead of lower field first PAL system, can it be?



Frage von Wedding_HDV:
Dezember 2008

Normal way the lines hopping in PAL system applied as follows:
lower field first upper thereafter. With this setting in Premiere Pro CS3, I had the problem with the half-comb effect. Now I have to "Picture Oberes first" converted, and O WUNDER! Now it looks class! The reason being? As it is right for PAL system: lower or upper picture first?
Maybe help the following information:
Was shot on Canon XH-A1 in HDV mode, the material was issued in DV format to a standard PAL 16:9 project.



Antwort von Axel:

"Wedding_HDV" wrote:
Normal way the lines hopping in PAL system applied as follows:
lower field first upper thereafter. With this setting in Premiere Pro CS3, I had the problem with the half-comb effect. Now I have to "Picture Oberes first" converted, and O WUNDER! Now it looks class! The reason being? As it is right for PAL system: lower or upper picture first?
Maybe help the following information:
Was shot on Canon XH-A1 in HDV mode, the material was issued in DV format to a standard PAL 16:9 project.


Explanation: DV is lower, HDV upper half. APP CS3 from dominating the way, synonymous to 25p (Camera: 25f mode), the synonymous and SD DVD, especially for top results. Recording HDV remains, then timeline is HDV 1080p.

Your approach is not useful. HDV is synonymous Mpeg2, the loss of quality when you convert between DV, is clearly visible, and therefore better in HDV and cut same as SD Mpeg2 output.

EDIT: I realize that you probably - according to your description - in the Camera downkonvertiert searched. It may be that this is with Sony HDV Cams is an option, with Canon in any case, it provides an even worse result than you would like to record with DV. Then, however, it is puzzling why the DV Pal is not the right Halbbildreihenfolge has. As always synonymous, change your workflow.



Antwort von JMS Productions:

Well, for me, however, is the same problem. All say DV is lower field first. Well, with none of my editing programs but I get DV lower field first and a "smooth" picture out. I believe it is of "Wedding_HDV" said Kammeffekt. I have my videos generally ALWAYS on Upper field first change, then it looks completely normal afterwards synonymous from s.Television. If I leave at Lower Field ('s believe me, I have sooo many times already tested), then afterwards all jerky, especially when panning. One can almost not see it without getting headaches.

I have this problem initially in advance, but to me None could provide an explanation. I have now simply abgefunden so that when I Upper field first should be. But as it seems, it is obviously not such a rare phenomenon?

Hat maybe now someone found an explanation? Interesting to know why it is synonymous if I know how I can circumvent the problem, it would be so anyway ...








Antwort von Axel:

"JMS Productions wrote:
... with none of my editing programs but I get DV lower field first and a "smooth" picture out.


That would be me, synonymous for purely academic reasons, times of interest. Several editing programs, okay. What kind of camera / recording mode?

Wedding_HDV rate, I will worry about all the fields behind them. Moreover, I advise to HDV with a - with a camera or AVCHD - Camera The DV codec is also easy to forget.



Antwort von PowerMac:

That's it, if you look at the stupid idea, a pointless and poor quality codec than meaningless intermediate step in its workflow assembled. Of direct HDV MPEG-2 for the DVD in the future, or to uncompressed PAL.



Antwort von JMS Productions:

"Axel" wrote:

That would be me, synonymous for purely academic reasons, times of interest. Several editing programs, okay. What kind of camera / recording mode?


So when Premiere CS3, it is so and in MAGIX Video deluxe 2007/2008 Plus. And synonymous EncoreDVD CS3, because I always burn my DVDs with it.

Camera is a Panasonic NV-GS230 ... Maybe this helps you next?



Antwort von WoWu:

Quote:
Explanation: DV is lower, HDV upper half.

The DV - Standard states that always the "lower" field, which is the first odd field recording. This includes HDV synonymous!

The EBU, in its Technical Recommendation R62-1998 and ITU-Recommendation BT.470, the upper half of the analog PAL transmission procedure prescribed.
A digitization and subsequent transfer via a SDI interface s.dieser Field dominance was noted (ITU-R 601 or ITU-R BT.656).
The SonyDigi-Beta has been based here and used in the 625-line Mazen synonymous upper field first.
DV uses but the lower half.
Unless one applies its signal from an SDI interface (as mentioned above), because then you get back to the upper field first, it must therefore rotate NLE!
Over 1394 but for all DV (and derivatives) the lower HB first.
Quote:
Several editing programs, okay. What kind of camera / recording mode?

The cutting systems, it is fairly no preference which dominance is present.
A cutting system establishes the dominance of non-fixed.



Antwort von Bernd E.:

"WoWu" wrote:
... the "lower" field, ie the odd Field ...

If the lower (than second) because it was not the straight and the upper (first) the odd?



Antwort von Marco:

That's right. And HDV is defined on the upper field first.

Marco



Antwort von WoWu:

@ Bernd

Yes, that is correct.
The field order in DV / NTSC is lower field, F2, first. "
"lower, F2", the "straight-even-rows [2.486] / upper, F1, the odd-odd-rows [1.485]
In PAL is upper field first F1 ': upper, F1, straight-even-rows [2.576] lower, F2, odd-odd rows [1.575].

But HDV is equivalent to the DV standard and is always second field!
See DV standard!
It is always important, from whatever source it relates .... It is about SDI, is upper half (see ITU-R 601 or ITU-R BT.656).
If it is FW bottom half.
This is true for Betacam (SP / SX) IMX, HDCAM, HDV, DV and all derivatives.
Edit:
525 lines in the way systems, it is anyway always the lower half, synonymous over SDI. Only at the Digi-Beta is a 625-line MAZ an inspired s.die SDI Directive.



Antwort von Marco:

"But is the HDV and standard DV is always second field!"

That can hardly be correct. HDV in the 720er version is always progressive. And in the HDV 1080er variant is always top field first. I never another HDV - video has come. So since all previously unprecedented HDV cameras (1080i) should be an Upper Field First-output have. If you have a HDV - video with Lowerfield First finds (unless of course such as the rendering engine hingebogen), the throw it after me ... ;)

Marco



Antwort von JMS Productions:

Well, that's how it was. I capture with Firewire from DV camcorder. In the editing program eighth in any event, I (as WoWu said) not großartig whether it Upper or Lower field is. Also in Magix is there by default DV Lower Field terminated. The whole thing, I must only change when I change the parameters for burning to DVD RESTRICT, no preference whether or MAGIX EncoreDVD. If I were there at EncoreDVD or because of MAGIX burning parameters to leave Lower Field, then jerky / shaking after each swing on the DVD. I've started so synonymous times MAGIX consulted and even then I have recommended: "Imagine the Halbbildreihenfolge Just when outputting to disc on the upper half in order". I habs just done and it works without Ruckler. I can not even me to explain, but it is the way ... WHY would I still like to know? A programming error? Afterward, MAGIX and Adobe but the same mistakes, which I can not imagine ...








Antwort von WoWu:

If you order later on a PAL television go, you need synonymous the upper field first.
(Technical Recommendation R62-1998 and ITU-Recommendation BT.470)
And the programmers put the bottom half quite right in the programs, as long as you computer can get material about FW.
The all so true.

And Marco @ .. I had naturally assumed that we HDV2 understand when I speak of HDV and not of a progressive material.



Antwort von Marco:

Yes, but HDV2 it's not the bottom, but the upper field first.

Marco



Antwort von JMS Productions:

"WoWu" wrote:
If you order later on a PAL television go, you need synonymous the upper field first.


And that was the knowledge that what I lacked. So true and everything but it's not a bug s.den programs ...

"WoWu" wrote:
(Technical Recommendation R62-1998 and ITU-Recommendation BT.470)


Sagmal, where can I read Technical Recommendations? I think that would be good learning :-)



Antwort von WoWu:

Of course, this is very "dry" stuff and above all, must be precisely synonymous with the exceptions to consider.
But if you do not back away, then, for example here:
http://www.ebu.ch/CMSimages/en/tec_text_r62-1998_tcm6-4585.pdf
or here:
http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs150/Documents/ITU656.PDF

Besten Gruss

@ Marco
I would like to search again, but I am so far assumed that the HDV DV Specs and is not equivalent to approximately a further exception, especially since everything in the 525 and DV-world bottom-HB ...
But you know, exceptions determined the norm and why should this not be a Sony engineer-off more s.der Digi-beta instead of standard-oriented s.einem have ... but why then s.einer grade 625er Digi-beta and not s.dem 525er model, which is synonymous because "lower" HB.
We Schau'n times.



Antwort von Marco:

Well, actually is in PAL DV systems so the only exception, with Lowerfield First works. Virtually every other halbbildbasierende PAL format works with Upper Field First (or independently of the Halbbildfolge like the Video-DVD). Hence it is in our latitudes at Upper Field First, at least of the general "normal" property talk. The term "standard", I would not use it consciously.

Marco



Antwort von WoWu:

Well, yes, because I think that would be general and the first time that the rest of the world to the Europeans would have tried.
But you've been right in the PAL world (and yes synonymous in the SDI 601) is all "upper" .... But the whole NTSC and digital video world is really "lower" have become .... surprise.
And I do not know whether DV because it is the exception, if you look at all the tape formats, according to the DB and all have come in "lower" to work. On the other hand, then quickly to the DB exception.
And HDV (2) it would have surprised me, because not even on LTC or VITC to be taken, which is in some way "upper" is defined.
But, as I said, I am of the DV Specs assumed. Perhaps this is really something HDV2 otherwise ... I look.
I just think it's a blessing when it comes sometime this problem no longer exists.



Antwort von Alex_HH:

Hello,

I've read everything here because I am synonymous with the problem before the "upper or lower field first" stand.

My project data are Sony HDV 1044x1080 Upper Field first. This I want a PAL DVD. (See my thread synonymous in the Sony Vegas forum) Do I then in project properties to Field order to "lower-first" or "upper-first" place. It depends on the raw material or on the output format?

I smoke the head ......

Thank you!



Antwort von WoWu:

@ Alex

This is the plague with the fossil remains of an analog time.
It is now once again depends on which format you choose, or how your DVD is played.
At 720 x 576 D1 PAL4: 3 ratio 1.067 do you "upper" first
At 768 x 576 PAL4: 3 ratio 1.0 take you "lower" first
At 720 x 576 PAL DV 5:4 ratio 1.067 You take synonymous "lower" first
At 720 x 576 PAL widescreen 16:9 ratio 1.422 do you "upper" first



Antwort von Alex_HH:

Hello Wolfgang,

thank you for your tireless work here in the forum.

If I understand you correctly, there is, therefore, for which output format I render and not of the starting material (here, 1440x1080, upper first)?








Antwort von WoWu:

Hi Alex,
No, it's always important to the playback device as the order is required.
Therefore, some very disappointed if anything on the NLE and looks great on television now are not so great.
It can therefore synonymous happen that a DVD on a tube device looks fabulous on a digital TV that his picture with a digital interface receives, but not anymore. (Or vice versa)
Therefore you need to order Field always adjust your target format.
This is now the world of interlaced ... so many want to preserve.



Antwort von Alex_HH:

ahhhh soooo ....

... and notice was your "upper-first" then for a tube TV or thought for a LCD.

Or asked differently, I have before me, then rendering always thought to the material where I spend?

Could I use my i-synonymous material in 25p render for my PAL DVD to this issue to avoid confusion?



Antwort von WoWu:

Well, not later than the tube TV, but is expected back on (i).
The best is the along hangeln s.den formats because it is less so on, whether it's an analog or a digital format.
But the confusion is actually even larger wiel (which now does not concern you), but strictly speaking it is so synonymous nor between Order Filed and Field Dominance differ, because it is not even always said that the odd lines in the first half synonymous land.
It can set a pass so that a field order on the second and has a HB HB-dominance at the first HB.

One can only be happy if one day no longer interlaced.
But my advice, look where the product you want to play and it is already the format and judge yourself according to the table format with which you start Field.
That should work.



Antwort von Alex_HH:

@ Wollfgang

Thanks again for your detailed description, which is certainly not just interests me.

In concrete terms this means that on the DVD player and / or the output monitor arrives?

Where can I find as a table format?

Pretty complicated ..... Would a p format not because of my latest player for the (tubes) in interlaced television convert?

Sorry, but as a layman, get there really no way through ....



Antwort von WoWu:

@ Alex
The table above I have already sent you.
I could of course you have the NTSC / ATSC formats complement, but I, because DVB-PAL-land times omitted.

Regarding the format, there is the problem so that you have interlaced footage from kommst.
A change in P would rather not bring benefits, because they are not really lossless how.
And afterwards I returned to walking brings not synonymous, because the timing differences between the fields of course already been dissolved.
You are dealing also with two disadvantages factors to do so.
My tip is really ... look at the PAL / DV format (top) and equal it with the video format that you specify on the DVD is like.
Hence the correct field dominance .... and then works out the synonymous.



Antwort von Alex_HH:

@ Wolfgang: Thank you!

I know the problem is not new. Thank you for me yet again illustrates searched.



Antwort von WoWu:

Happy .. and beautiful greeting s.meine old home town.




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