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Empfehlungen & Meinungen über Sony FX1 und Canon XL H1

Recommendations and opinions about SonyFX1 and Canon XL H1

Frage von M.R.:
Oktober 2006

Days together!

Due to a total loss with my old camera DVCam DSR300 I am now determined to upgrade my camera with equity and compensation for damage insurance on HD.

First, I flirted with the SonyXD CAM HD series (F330), but with reasonable Lens and the necessary infrastructure for the cut I would have to create the 30,000 euro, even with software that leases an excessive expense for my order situation.

If, of course, preferably the Canon XL H1 or alternatively, the FX1.

Anyone who has worked specifically with the XL H1. The important thing is really the best picture in reasonable lighting conditions.
But as manual handling Focusing synonymous with the LCD display and manual exposure throw me questions.
I had the camera in the store once in the hand and I can not imagine Focusing with the currently supplied to expose and display.
I know that the camera, according to tests probably has the best picture in this price class, but that's subjective, really?
Had in the past with the acclaimed XL1 (DV) rotated and was not so enthusiastic. Colors were unnatural, and the handling was crap.
Would the Canon back to complain with one battery to get to grips with the top-heaviness, but I'm uncertain about the manual operation, especially synonymous in the shoulder operation.

Would be very grateful for your advice!

Liebe Grüße, Mike

Antwort von ruessel:

Since you will it difficult to find a comparable HDV camera like a DSR300 have found. I'm synonymous last year of HDV, DVCAM have swung too because there is no other possibility. The customers do not pay more just because suddenly the picture is higher now disbanded. And has for XD HD Sonydie Prices just coated, so plausible a large optical distance shot HDV material is not synonymous exist (according to magazines).

In all HDV cameras lacking a proper control of high-resolution HDV viewfinder to really be able to focus. Also the handling is not so .... as for a halt DSR300 are only real amateur cameras.

I bought the FX1 camera as a transition until it perhaps time for next year is a better HDV camera. The Canon H1's too expensive to me because I've seen a lot of stuff like this (pretty sharp) and I feel the eternal color noise from the picture-chip on the Kecks, a subsequent color correction could be problems. Unfortunately, the FX1 is my opinion, is not very sharp in the picture and must be dealt with retrospectively. But for under 3000 Euronen there is not something better with all the controls. I do not synonymous believe that the new Canon HDV FX1 the flyer will be .....

If money is not the greatest role ;-) I would take a look at Panasonic HDX900E throw. Then I could be synonymous weak, but Priced located just above a F350 ... and Sony is not.

Antwort von M.R.:

Danke schon mal for your answer.
It has the color noise with the Canon, I have not yet heard or seen.
I borrowed time for a week a FX1 and, therefore, made in Rome, very nice (private) recordings. The picture was very quiet and noise (even) for gain sharing.
In direct Comparison is the Canon very noisy? Provides especially color noise to the promotion of artefacts? Because that has disturbed me already at the Fx1 (horiontaler swing through alley trees looked almost like a download AVI asu) the net.
Sharpness is already important to me, but a low-noise picture as well.
The direction in which a compromise is preferable?

Liebe Grüße, Mike

Antwort von WeiZen:

Moin Mike,
"MR" wrote:
Provides especially color noise to the promotion of artefacts? Because that has disturbed me already at the Fx1 (horiontaler swing through alley trees looked almost like a download AVI asu) the net.

welcome to the club. The fabricated to 99.9% of your monitor.
Depending on the speed of a pan provides sharp or not sharp pictures, but one thing: not artifacts.
Artifacts or blockages ehr first dive, if any, to in extreme darkness at solid-color bodies. Probability below 1%.

Antwort von M.R.:

@ wheat

They are already artifacts, I mean. These are not typical streaking of LCDs, since the artifacts are synonymous in still mode visible. There are small blockages, but it is clearly visible. Are more specifically referred to the trees lining was the fine foliage in a mosaic pattern.
Then make any more noise requirements s.The compression, I'm now worried whether the observed artifact formation of the Canon XL H1 because of their supposedly stronger chroma noise (and to gain greater synonymous Helligskeitsrauschen) appears even stronger than in the SonyFX1 that known to be a has a very low-noise picture.

Antwort von WeiZen:

I'm sorry, I can not believe it.
Can you see the scene, or a part thereof, after www.Rapidshare.de upload, but please, the FX original TS-1. not an intermediate and email me the link.

Antwort von M.R.:

Since I have neither the moment nor HDV Camera Recorder, I have no way to play now synonymous said scene on my calculator too.
But I am not the only or the first one to notice this artifact formation.
In numerous tests of this deficiency is described.
But is clearly synonymous.
HDV is ultimately still regarded as the Amateur solution.
25Mbit are halt a little bit of an HD picture.
XD Cam has with more efficient codec in the maximum recording quality 35MBits. One can imagine the quality advantage of this quality, though numerous tests to confirm that has Xd Cam HD even at the lowest data rate of 18Mbit better motion reproduction and sharpness) than HDV (25Mbit.
But who can easily shell out 15,000 euros net for a camcorder (without Battery and Lens). Not to mention the infrastructure (XD cam recorder, computer hardware ++++).

These artefacts must probably take in Purchase. Nevertheless, in spite of this blemish, the picture much better than the old Pal - Gepixel.
But what has the liveliest Camera Picture?
Who can confirm the color noise of the XL H1 or describe?

Antwort von WeiZen:

"MR" wrote:
Since I have neither the moment nor HDV Camera Recorder, I have no way to play now synonymous said scene on my calculator too.
But I am not the only or the first one to notice this artifact formation.
In numerous tests of this deficiency is described.

These artefacts must probably take in Purchase.

which belongs to the realm of myths and legends.
And does not refer to old tests, which already has a beard.
As I said, show an example that no test of the FX original TS-1.
This call has been followed ever!
See synonymous www.videotreffpunkt.com
I certainly do not and even Reißschwenks of moving objects, cars / motorcycles of trees posted.
Of course, sinking into the background motion blur, but he did not splinted!
If one was screwed up, uh splinted, then it is the visual display unit!

Antwort von ruessel:

HDV makes for its strong compression has beautiful pictures, but the gar nix splinted, I would not sign it. In my old blog short snippets (native HC1 transport streams) into which one may have already detect a blockage. But these are extreme images and these artifacts are only in Stillimage recognize and I have this blockage is not in the current picture can play HDV on my LCD. Or should only the VLC Media Player generate this blockage in Stillimage?

I would just get views of both cameras, loan and try for yourself! It costs around 100 euros and for that you know exactly whether or not the Canon H1 is better for you .... My decision was dropped against the Canon, because of the price and the possibility that my dream is coming soon HDV Camera (probably it will remain a dream), nicely sharp and so noise like the FX1 .... And as much as my old DSR DVCAM .... up to 7000 euros.

Antwort von r.p.television:

Yes, it's nice that people with their new camcorders seem to be perfectly happy and I want to talk to anyone synonymous HDV bad, but the blockages are, unfortunately for HDV production routine in an unacceptable weakness in the broadcast field.

Have HD CAM material in 1080i / 50i seen over HD SDI on a FULL HD Tube (Sony), and also in direct Comparison H1 Canon XL material of my own camera. The difference in peaceful motives without vertical or horizontal panning and zooming is not relevant to the course, better contrast and Farbdarstellungsverhalten an HD cam, say, the focus is almost exactly equal to the Canon XL H1 with HD CAM (the Z1 shits when it comes to sharpness probably due to their pixel shifts significantly from). But when it is tilted, it quickly reveals the HDV camera. Here the tube monitor shows even more clearly than a full-HD LCD (the Pull-effects small blockages blur a little bit "" and embellish it) the blockages.
Ok, we are not talking of huge artifacts, such as in digital dropouts. There are really very small blockages. Layman would describe it more as image noise. In the blockages Stillimage look almost like film grain.
But it quite disturbing, I think.
The picture moves in one second (quiet motif) of extremely sharp) to (turn up significantly blurred - partly under DV level.
I, therefore, for interest's sake DVCAM material with a lot of jumps, etc. subject to HDV and upconverted, the picture is worse in the moving image than the DV-picture themes, motifs in the quiet picture sharpness impression is better.

I will as soon as I can afford to upgrade to XD CAM HD, because I can not use HDV material on a permanent basis in a professional turning everyday and wants.

For the discerning amateur filmmakers, the XD CAM or everything is about both financial synonymous weight beyond the pale, one can only hope if there is perhaps an HDV update. Perhaps an HDV 3 codec with 35MBits for a shorter season, or a shoulder-cassette format HDV camcorder with great Cassettes - a quasi-DSR-250P successor.
But to make Sonywill pretty obvious the XD CAM HD format, no in-house competition.

Mike and I can therefore recommend MRI limited the Canon XL H1. The 'FX1/Z1 is too blurred, but it is for some lowlight shots the better choice.
The Canon can be fitted with a tripod plate, Matte Box with Rail Support and a heavy battery convert back (for the light's head or other) and screwed to the bottom of a discarded shoulder pads shoulder camera to a prima shoulder camera.
At first she was much too top-heavy and the shoulder pad was a joke. More like a camera tripod. But after the modifications it is well balanced and quiet on the shoulder.
But the representation of movement is something that with superior claim (on a permanent basis after the initial enthusiasm has faded over the image sharpness) is preparing little joy.
There are no classic blockages, but the image resolution of moving subjects is evident in the basement.

Antwort von r.p.television:

Oh yes: Did I forget:
Because of the color noise in the Canon:
I can not quite confirm.
Subjectively, the visibility test is not more than Fx1.
The important thing is that the Canon is maximally increased by 3db gain. Optimal 0 db or-3db. It's quickly becomes pixelated. Even more so if the compression occurs, I have not specifically observed, because I generally avoid the activation of the gain.
The ideal would be like me that you yourself a lowlight for FX1 shoots rent or buy. Since the FX1 is much better. Even at +18 db is almost no Rasuchen visible.

But most importantly:
Who the Canon XL1 as you previously aware of (the non-ferrous dyer), will be surprised that:
The Canon XL H1 has strangely in the factory setting a rather "flat" picture. Very low contrast and pale colors.
What is important here. Cine gamma curve in daylight at level 1, with artificial light tend to level 2, Black Stretch up to regulate the contrast may be to your taste, brightness, save a few steps down and then two Costum presets. Now know the exact custom preset points any more, but got synonymous with the color balance a bit towards red rotated, then the skin tones were similar to the HD CAM models, or the custom presets for almost all HD CAM models are activated.
Then you have a sensational picture with very nice "film look" - clear: Not like a CineAlta or Varicam, but just not as like-video or dv.

You will, despite the aforementioned shortcomings of the HDV format you have joy s.der Camera.
Here are possible without any zoom or detail shots compositions in which PAL pushed to its limits. There were always zooms or incised with a high Brenntweite needed to detail make it visible.

Have fun!

Antwort von seppelman:

Hi Mike,
for you, so how does the Panasonic HVX200 out of the question? The DVCProHD format should at 100Mb / s clearly less "blocking" as HDV.

PS.: Do not arrive with the P2 cards, there's this wonderful invention called Firestore.

Antwort von PowerMac:

That with the blocks and artifacts, I can unequivocally confirm. Who like a grandmother films from Tripod, and then directly in front of the monitor to be enjoying HD, which will not be noticeable. When EB and documentary stuff makes it easy not HDV. In Reißzooms who did not go with the Z1 wobbles) and fast pans, classic shoulder work such as interviews with politicians and stars in crowds (of course, so the companion of man, reports, as shits from HDV.

Antwort von flow'':

What is it with the JVC cams?

So GY-HD 101/111 or even the new 201 (?) with 50p

While 720p, but a truly class completely manual objectively.
yes I know, not as good as really expensive nachrüstobjektive, but who has been a manual objectively low class in the.

And the jvc peaking I find really very good, so can be synonymous Focusing ..

is designed to halt professionals, ergo, no image stabilization and automatic modes ..

But as you write, you should come to a clear

Antwort von PowerMac:

"flow''" wrote:
(...) But a really class completely manual objective. (...)

Worse than that of a Z1 lens.

Antwort von WeiZen:

"PowerMac" wrote:
That with the blocks and artifacts, I can unequivocally confirm. Who like a grandmother films from Tripod, and then directly in front of the monitor to be enjoying HD, which will not be noticeable. When EB and documentary stuff makes it easy not HDV. In Reißzooms who did not go with the Z1 wobbles) and fast pans, classic shoulder work such as interviews with politicians and stars in crowds (of course, so the companion of man, reports, as shits from HDV.

Please choose an Beweiß in the form of video.

Antwort von PowerMac:

Nope. I proved (by the way, without sharp s) dir gar nix. No desire, no time, too much effort. I have seen it often enough in cutting 8x8 pixel blocks. As the same with MPEG-2 and JPEG is common. It can not be otherwise mathematically synonymous. 25 Mbps are simply too few for a full resolution at maximum motion picture changes as fast Lichtwechseln.

Antwort von WeiZen:

This answer I expected.

Antwort von PowerMac:

Prove to me you the opposite.
Ungefä it always looks like this: zum Bild

Antwort von PowerMac:

Or here:


Antwort von prem:

@ seppel man:
The HVX200 would indeed have a wonderful recording with DVCPRO HD format, but the image chips so do not even have native DV quality. Here, although according to the pixel shift a subjectively sharper picture than one might expect to see the chips, but just too blurred for HD. The Picture to only affect the contrast of the colors and very nice, but DVCPROHD to call it, is now just a little cheeky.
What is Panasonic thinking in the memory, is a real joke.
Unfortunately, the displaced of Como Firestore is exactly the same joke.
I can not say unfortunately, because I have had even one (thank God I could) give it back.
Why: ->
a.) Each HDV Camera must be set for the Firestore. You can then place simultaneously to the tape holding the hard drive of the car on fire door clips. Sounds wonderful, does not work properly.
Because the cameras prefer that holding one's own tape drive, the Firewire connector receives an unstable signal. This ensures that the fire doors, despite the advertised fast access times as opposed to tape only one seconds (or more) then starts with the recording. This problem could be avoided by the tape drive to disable the cameras and only works with the Firestore. Why this should be done, but in any case, I'll explain later.
b.) Due to the unstable signal to begin recording produced by the fire goals in the first 3 to five seconds vigorous dropouts () at about 12 frames completely red Picture. As each tape is more reliable and better. The (bold) of Como Answer: Yes, that's just because of its design preference of the tape drive. In the same breath with a secure recording medium of advertising that is almost cheating.
c.) Not only to record the beginning, but after several minutes clip length synonymous dropouts occur suddenly (say) every 15th clip. And that is not enough: After running dropout Sound and Picture assyncron next. That's joy at the Post.
d.) The Firestore is an unreliable recorder. Sometimes he draws (although tape) simply does not run on. This is while using the display shown in the viewfinder, but I would be busy indeed over whether the Firestore now works or not, when I concentrate on my subject and the camera too.
e.) You might as well turn off the tape drive and record only on the Firestore.
Then you could even Firestore to 3 seconds Record Store (it's 3 seconds to activate the program before REC/PAUSE- record button). But because of the points c) (dropouts in the middle clip with Tonversatz) and d) denial of the recording
this mode is extremely risky. The tape was run along in any case.

Added to this was that the Firestore the recorded clips is not played back on my XL H1. So you could not move times check that the fire doors again fabricated bullshit or not. The surprise then comes home.
Como Answer: In the United States will now be released a model in which the playout works with the Canon. Wunderbar! If I had been not able to predict?

Apparently I had a "runaway" model. But I have heard of several people who have not noticed until weeks later that her Firestore has the same error. Complaints must be returned and then fizzle out.
I have no idea of whether I described problems are now fixed. Three months ago, it was not so. Not even the battery could be removed again after the first onset. Tip of my dealer: try "better only if absolutely necessary. For other clients is already broken something! "- Super!

Are there ever been a Firestore by DVCPROHD version? I believe that there are distinguished in 25Mbit mode, ie on HDV.
And what if? Then fit the plate 80Gbyte's only a maximum of 1.5 hours. What do you do when the road is longer? I often take for 6 to 12 hours of raw footage, before I had the opportunity to play my material to the edit system.
I already see the funny pictures:
As cameramen come with small pockets with their HVX 200, and a large fire for example, 8-10 for the gate. Since 4 Fire Gate (1700 .- Euro for one) are more expensive than the camera.

Therefore, the HVX200 is only an immature toy with a sham "HD" for mi

Antwort von M.R.:

Thank you for the first time many tips.

I think only time that I would accept me at first an XL H1. Maybe I'll get me used at Ebay synonymous nor FX1. Apparently, both Camera's have their advantages.
Perhaps reichts later XD CAM DVC PRO HD, or HD.

Thanks once synonymous only because of the warning because of the Fire Gate. With whom I have already flirted synonymous. But even alone the problem that no one can view the clips on the spot in the camera, I feel too insecure. Control option must be.
The other points are really incredible.
Especially, the HVX200 has moved further away. Thus, the camera does in fact makes no sense.
Since the owners can indeed only Höffer that another company a hard-disk recorder with more rausbringt hard drive - then the synonymous work.

Liebe Grüße, Mike

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