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Sony PMW-EX3 - Problem "flaue und zu helle Bilder"

SonyPMW-EX3 - Problem "sluggish and too bright pictures"



Frage von zueriman:
Juli 2009

I have tested the EX3 detail and compared with JVC and Canon cameras (see synonymous) http://forum.slashcam.de/lowlight-vergleich-quotsony-pmw-ex3-quot-with-quotjvc-gy-hm100-quot-vt72561.html.

The Comparison has clearly shown that the EX-3 terms, quality is the absolute front runner:

- Best lowlight performance.
- Best wide-angle performance with the supplied standard lens.
- No visible chromatic aberration.
- Best Resolutionund sharpness.

One thing the EX3 but was massively worse than the competitors of JVC and Canon: The pictures in daylight (with and without the ND filter) often seem slightly overexposed and therefore dull. With a Belichtungsgskorrektur a-half to one Aperture I was able to make the shots while darker picture of the impression, however, remained sluggish and shifted easily into a "grauflau. ) Also a subsequent editing in Adobe Premiere CS4 (Tonwert-/Kontrast-/Luminanzkorrekuren the recordings could not give the desired crispness. Particularly devastating impact of the error, if the HD material to SD runterskalliert: The most sluggish pictures then almost worse than useless and in some Billigst SD amateur camera, they look like old VHS recordings, after two generations of copying, without any Details and Depth. Incidentally, I have used different conversion methods and Programs, the result was always equal bad. On the conversion liegts therefore not. Pictures, which I did with my 10 years old Canon SD Camera XM-1, were massively better.

Here are two photographs which show the Problemaktik very well.
Clip1: Recording in full HD resolution (1080-25p):


Clip2: Same images on SD (576-25p) heruntergerendert:


Clip 2 times s.Schluss pays attention to the meadow and the red tree: the whole works just like a mash without any details.

The whole can not lie s.der test camera, since I did the same test with two different EX3 cameras, and every time I come to the same bad result. Furthermore, I did the test with all possible resolutions (720p made, 720i, 1080p, 1080i), the result was always equal bad.

I assume that the problem stems from the fact that the raw signals from the host-camera chips are not optimally prepared. The EX3 but offers the possibility to modify these parameters via camera settings for image manipulation. This is rather laborious and requires very detailed knowledge.

Therefore, the following questions:

- Has anyone of you made similar experiences with the EX3?
- How did you solve the problem?
- What are the best-camera presets?
- Has anyone of you can best preset files which I transfer to my camera? When's googling I found nothing.

If they can solve this problem, I stick to my verdict: The EX3 would be the best camera in the distance with the 10,000-euro league.

Here are screenshots:



Antwort von Bernd E.:

Please not again several threads on the same topic! But even here the discussion is running:
http://forum.slashcam.de/sony-pmw-ex3-problem-quotflaue-and-zu-helle-bilder-quot-vp366036.html



Antwort von zueriman:

Sorry, that was aware of that. But I have subsequently seen that there is a special EX-forum, and I thought that I want to play it safe.
That's like a Switzerland, each fit on here ... everyone on ;-).








Antwort von Jogi:

The EX1/EX3 offers a variety of settings. If you put you do not trust your own presets, then try it a try the different gamma curves pre ... STD1 - 3 and CINE1 -4. Each curve is still in the trim manifold parameters.
In the default setting above all, the EX1 is abgstimmt something bright. 0.5-1 f-stop less is here already ok.
Simply drop in the manual. This set-up parameters are explained!



Antwort von zueriman:

Thanks for the great tips. Will try, of course, everything. For more tips and reviews, I am thankful!



Antwort von zueriman:

Thanks for the good tip. Will try, of course, everything. For more tips and reviews, I am thankful!



Antwort von deti:

I am so not a fan of Picture Profiles, because they are so often the dynamic range of color and brightness makes broken. It is better to make the necessary corrections in postprocessing. These offer all NLEs great filter, where you can also save your own presets.

Deti



Antwort von makra:

The issue of scale "EX1 material down to SD" synonymous slowly makes me mad.
I already have more than 10 different workflows and tested with various programs, encoders and scalers. The results are always much worse than SD may be somewhat although the HD material is good.
And with some degree of restriction "is in my opinion, the sticking point. I have material that can bring much better on SD than others. My guesses are:

1. (Extremely sharp material, specifically "artificially" by Picture Profiles sharpened) the SD picture worsens.

2. Not too much and expose the material to convert the nonlinear "broadcast colors" so that no 110% brightness is well happen again. The "normally exposed" pictures of the EX1 are brighter than would be optimal for SD conversion.

3. Complex scenes with ultra-wide angle (, especially in combination with camera movements) make problems after conversion to SD.

That is my impression, or rather the beginning of suspicion. Can somebody confirm or refute?

Regards
Manfred



Addendum: Would it be technically possible to make the EX1/EX3 via software update SD-ready? Because then I would like to have.



Antwort von Bernd E.:

"makra" wrote:
The issue of scale ... "EX1 material down to SD" synonymous slowly makes me mad ... already more than 10 different workflows have been tested with different programs ...

Here you can find a tutorial on how this problem with Final Cut Pro is solved:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/ex1_sd_output_young.html

"makra" wrote:
... Would it be technically possible to make the software update via EX1/EX3 SD-ready? ...

It would probably be technically possible, but such a SD of suitable firmware Sonybisher is not offered.



Antwort von Jogi:

"deti" wrote:
I am so not a fan of Picture Profiles, because they are so often the dynamic range of color and brightness makes broken. It is better to make the necessary corrections in postprocessing. These offer all NLEs great filter, where you can also save your own presets.
Deti


Toward a rational attitude in the Color Brightness, Contrast and Gamma is nothing to be optimized. On the contrary,
because these corrections in the action before the actual compression codec to be done. The NLE is then encoded with (; Mpeg2 to Ex1 / 3) where do mu problems can occur for example in color corrections.



Antwort von Jogi:

"makra" wrote:
The issue of scale "EX1 material down to SD" synonymous slowly makes me mad.
I already have more than 10 different workflows and tested with various programs, encoders and scalers. The results are always much worse than SD may be somewhat although the HD material is good.
And with some degree of restriction "is in my opinion, the sticking point. I have material that can bring much better on SD than others. My guesses are:

1. (Extremely sharp material, specifically "artificially" by Picture Profiles sharpened) the SD picture worsens.

2. Not too much and expose the material to convert the nonlinear "broadcast colors" so that no 110% brightness is well happen again. The "normally exposed" pictures of the EX1 are brighter than would be optimal for SD conversion.

3. Complex scenes with ultra-wide angle (, especially in combination with camera movements) make problems after conversion to SD.

That is my impression, or rather the beginning of suspicion. Can somebody confirm or refute?

Regards
Manfred

Addendum: Would it be technically possible to make the EX1/EX3 via software update SD-ready? Because then I would like to have.


I never had a problem with down converting to SD. Liqiud 7.2 berherscht the ausserodentlich well. And the material of a downconverted EX1 looks sehrgut and there remains a lot about s.Qualität. The presets are particularly needed to later convert to SD material, I can not confirm too!
Sharpening in the action (; EX1 / 3) is anyway one NoGo and synonymous absolutely not necessary. If there is already "activated detail" then not even pull up the level but can be set to "NULL".



Antwort von DeeZiD:

"Jogi" wrote:

I never had a problem with down converting to SD. Liqiud 7.2 berherscht the ausserodentlich well. And the material of a downconverted EX1 looks sehrgut and there remains a lot about s.Qualität. The presets are particularly needed to later convert to SD material, I can not confirm too!
Sharpening in the action (; EX1 / 3) is anyway one NoGo and synonymous absolutely not necessary. If there is already "activated detail" then not even pull up the level but can be set to "NULL".


What details do I need you = OFF terms agree.
I enclose for export to Blu-ray (; 25p in 1080PsF) even a slight GaussianBlur filter on the video in AE.
But call the Skalierungsfunktionieren in Liquid as well, I have dared to think ".

Schonmal Virtualdub or Avisynth tested? ;)


Gruß Dennis








Antwort von deti:

As in HD looks very good, looks clean synonymous downscaled still well out in SD. I do not understand your problems and can only assume that it s.den settings in NLE is when downscaling fail.

... And I find the raw material from a factory setting in EX3 absolutely fine - there is nothing too bright, unless you expose false. However, a correct white balance is imperative. The sluggish Picture impression probably comes of habituation s.The candy colors of the consumer cameras.

Deti



Antwort von Jogi:

"DeeZiD" wrote:

... But call the Skalierungsfunktionieren in Liquid as well, I have dared to think ".
Schonmal Virtualdub or Avisynth tested? ;)
Gruß Dennis


probably because our experiences seem to drift apart slightly. An expenditure for a normal DVD directly from the HD timeline in Liquid mE looks great. So for me it is hard to imagine what they could do better Virtualdub or Avisynth!



Antwort von makra:

Good, acceptable, or super is a matter of taste. Only in direct Comparison can be judged as the quality is. At first I thought synonymous "SD is just very bad in Comparison to HD." and have it accepted. In a direct Comparison with very well-made purchase DVD's, however, can see that the downsampled HD material looks really very lousy - even if the original material is apparently good. Discussions and Tips of the Internet forums I have read and tested. Current state of affairs remains: No matter how I place the Runterrechnen on SD makes for good material bad - far from the quality of which would have a DVD on it.
As I write this, the idea comes to me testhalber times not to scale down but to use a portion of the HD material. What will probably happen?



Antwort von Jogi:

Just burn from the HD timeline of the NLE to DVD without Scali advance. That at least brings Liqiud appealing results!



Antwort von makra:

I'm still s.Testen. One pitfall I have now found my tests so far has largely exposed as useless: I have my DVD's reproduced in a SonyBDP-S350 Blu-Ray. As a FULL-HD Monitor Samsung UE32B6000 is connected. One of the two devices convert the DVD back up to HD. These bodies are s.einem "normal" DVD player + "normal" Television only look a little blurred übelst splinted and verflimmert. Oblique getting jaggies and flickering edges. How can people be so stupid! On the menu's in both devices I've tried out all the parameters. There is nothing in the If a switch or could it'll be fine.

On a regular DVD player looks at the solution

Quote:

Here you can find a tutorial on how this problem with Final Cut Pro is solved:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/ex1_sd_output_young.html


much better than the standard workflow of Final Cut Pro> Compressor -> DVD PRO
With the result we can live very well.

One thing I can not understand it: Why cut it with my DVD quality when viewing the SonyBlu_ray Player Samsung LED TV team so bad? If I pass a einlege purchase the DVD but not synonymous, and the Picture is superschön almost like HD. (; I have an extra check again, it was really a DVD and not Blu-Ray).

Is that even the limits of the encoder that I can afford?



@ Jogi


-Manfred
Quote:
Just burn from the HD timeline of the NLE to DVD without Scali advance. That at least brings Liqiud appealing results!


I'm here nen Mac, why not try your suggestion, unfortunately. But scaling gehts ja eh, not without. When the liquid is likely to make any car if you do not explicitly pretend to be.



Antwort von Jogi:

Compare homemade DVD's with Purchase DVD on which movies are still pressed, if possible, to always go wrong. The source material is usually not encrypted and Mpeg will furthermore be subjected to a particularly complex mastering the private can not be imitated often.
Now, however, should not be synonymous with a DVD to be burned below 8,000 Mbps, and synonymous only to the smallest possible speed with. Second, the various players in different qualities synonymous to give the material on a DVD again. Better players can be on a variety of menu options as trim.
But, as always synonymous. A DVD is only just in PAL resolution, and again these are just only 720x576 Pix. As good-quality playback of a DVD is synonymous. In Comparison with direct HD (, V) materials can not withstand. My homemade DVD's (; HD to PAL) to keep a lot left s.Qualität synonymous and act on my 40 "FullHD LCD very pleasant.



Antwort von makra:

Why is this important?

Quote:
only the smallest possible with speed to burn.


When backing up of data, the subsequent compare always true - no preference what burning speed I suppose. If the video data when it not so?



Antwort von zueriman:

"deti" wrote:
As in HD looks very good, looks clean synonymous downscaled still well out in SD. I do not understand your problems and can only assume that it s.den settings in NLE is when downscaling fail.

... And I find the raw material from a factory setting in EX3 absolutely fine - there is nothing too bright, unless you expose false. However, a correct white balance is imperative. The sluggish Picture impression probably comes of habituation s.The candy colors of the consumer cameras.

Deti


AM NLE liegts certainly not. (Adobe CS4, and CS3) are not amateur NLE's!



Antwort von deti:

"zueriman" wrote:
AM NLE liegts certainly not. (Adobe CS4, and CS3) are not amateur NLE's!

I have a bad word but not used, and as Lutz Dieckmann has correctly noted yesterday, in another context:
"Lutz Dieckmann" wrote:
Again, the professional is different from amateur ALONE by the fact that the professional with his work to earn money, not the amateur. That says NOTHING about the quality of the final product.


Only synonymous solve your problem is not this knowledge. Even though I for Comparison with an EX3 run through a garden and the downscaling Filmed, then you bring the synonymous nothing. How can we help you?

PS: If you look at your sample movies, then there is the white of the total limit. Could it be that you
- During the shoot out had no ND filter switched on?
- Was limited in handling the full 8-bit signal from the camera to the broadcast range of 16-235?

By default, the camera comes out of ~ 16-255 - this can be prevented under Picture Profile / Gamma / CINE2 so that 16-235 comes out (and a so-called 100%) signal. That usually makes little sense, since one then the dynamic range of the camera unnecessarily limited.

Deti








Antwort von Meggs:

"zueriman" wrote:
The pictures in daylight (; with and without the ND filter) often seem slightly overexposed and therefore dull.


Perhaps a polarizing filter would help. I know the effect of Photography. On some summer days, the images seem strangely sluggish, with correctly adjusted polarizing filters are they bright and just as one would expect.




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