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Frage zu HD-Camcorder mit MPEG2 (Band) und H.264-AVC-Technik (Festplatte)

Question to HD with MPEG2 camcorder (tape) and H.264 AVC technology (hard drive)



Frage von Hugo Kurz:
Januar 2008

Hello everybody!

When it comes to a question ...

Why is the comparison of the optics and the CCD camcorder with regard to image quality MPEG2 before H.264.AVC. ?

Would be glad if you could help me.

Thank you ever,

Thomas



Antwort von Thomas Kurz:

Hello everybody!

When it comes to a question ...

Why is the comparison of the optics and the CCD camcorder with regard to image quality MPEG2 before H.264.AVC. ?

Would be glad if you could help me.

Thank you ever,

Thomas



Antwort von Markus:

Hello Thomas,

I guess after that depends on the fact that ambitious users more value on the Editiertbarkeit set of shots and almost have the necessary knowledge base, in accordance with this objective camcorder with MPEG-2 recording devices with MPEG4 Compression preferable.

Likewise, this group is synonymous willing to spend more money for a camcorder or greater, which means that they receive more value, usbessere optics and image converter.

BTW:








Antwort von Thomas Kurz:

Hi Markus,

Thank you for the quick reply. I'm no expert and did not quite understand what your answer means ... Sorry; D



Antwort von Thomas Kurz:

Oh and sorry ...

was no intention that I've posted it several times!



Antwort von Jan:

Look at just the contributions of WoWu that one rarely learns more about the bitstreams. So the freak (meant nicely) here in the forum, if at CCD, CMOS or H.264 goes.





Antwort von Markus:

"Thomas Short" wrote:
... did not quite understand what your answer means ...

Uh, how could I formulate it differently?

MPEG2 is less compressed as MPEG4, which means that MPEG-2 compressed images can better edit.

Who knows the above context, and a post has in mind, preferred to buy camcorders that record MPEG2 compressed.

Furthermore, that a post-willing-buyer usually already have experience in the video field and know a good camcorder that is more fun than a cheaper. So buy educated users who frequently use such equipment, better camcorder.

MPEG4, however, is more for beginners who do not really have the recordings nachzubearbeiten. This target is used for its definition camcorder-buying intentions often the terms "cheap" and "cheaper". ;-)



Antwort von Thomas Kurz:

@ Markus: Wor Thank you! I now have a credible ichs understood; D

@ Jan: Thanks! Werd ich gleich mal look!



Antwort von WoWu:

Hello Thomas

Quote:
Why is the comparison of the optics and the CCD camcorder with regard to image quality MPEG2 before H.264.AVC. ?


... because many users and testers of the optical part of a camcorder and reduction algorithms can not differentiate ....

You have the optical / analog part, ie Lens + CCD or CMOS partially completely independently consider and assess.
If it were good images can be synonymous only reduction algorithms efficiently draw.

The gross difference between MPEG2 and H.264 is that almost all the tools from MPEG2 to H.264 again, only in better shape, additionally enriched with better and z.Tl. new tools to improve image coding. Furthermore, the "rigid" DCT to improve procedures and added resources, which are often made mistakes in the future to prevent implementation.
This all means that the bitstream is efficient and reliable and you with significantly less bandwidth equally good or better results.

Why are appraisals so bad?

There are several reasons for this:

The H.264 allows the image of telephony to the super-resolution film to realize everything.
Manufacturer Dier have initially committed to the lower amateur coverage, because it initially for the lucrative market. Quite deliberately, they are not yet so in the amateurs who want to cut videos synonymous "Shoot & Play" is called Sonydas.
Furthermore, the assumption that once they begin their development drawers from the old MPEG2 currently empty, before it with more extensive products.
Also deceive FullHD such names as the buyer because of this behind the Resolution1920x1080 suspects. But this is not so.

In addition, the image quality very much of the implementation of the encoder depends on it and here, precisely because it is a new product, quite stark differences. This has but little with the quality of H.264, but rather with the performance of software firms.
This compares to MPEG2 course with a codec, s.dem companies already have 10 years to work ourselves the last Hinterhofbude their deployment to the last bit was optimize.
So you see, the things we should not mix with each other and the child must have the names and find out what it is.

Clearly, it is unlikely that more companies will provide the medium for MPEG2 will develop new products.
Clearly synonymous, that the company be slightly time must exist, and adapt their products to the developed.
Clearly synonymous, that the first products are not of the quality, the h.264 hergeben could.
What is clear is synonymous to MPEG2 to H. 264 a plethora s.skalierbaren the heist, the requirements will allow customized products. From a simple "quick & dirty" camcorder, high-profile, right up to professional equipment and even in the highest grades for cinema shots. So when something H.264 closely, so it has to do.

I have the AVC (H.264) Encoding of bitstream with very closely with Panasonic DVCProHD compared synonymous and so cut and worked and have to say ... nothing tuned suspension. Low bandwidth with extremely high quality.

Markus writes:

Quote:
Furthermore, that a post-willing-buyer usually already have experience in the video field and know a good camcorder that is more fun than a cheaper.


I would as more emphasis on the "mostly" because I want to confirm this observation more "rare" and H.264 is now expected to slightly times, synonymous if you want to make good pictures. which begins with the choice of camera because FullHd where it stands is far from it and no 1920x1080 AVCHD where it stands is not always synonymous of the H.264 standard there.



Antwort von Thomas Kurz:

@ WoWu: First of all thanks a lot for your detailed reply! Thank you ...

So that is how I now understand it, is an HD camcorder with MPEG2, the Comparison of Optics and CCD are not better than a camcorder with H.264.AVC in terms of picture quality.

The only problem lies solely in the H.264.AVC still in its "infancy" is?



Antwort von WoWu:

Hello Thomas,

"Kids Shoes" I would not call, because the standard is out and it will no longer be changed. That is precisely the advantage of such robust procedures, compared to proprietary processes, s.denen nor ever will rumgedoktert.
But he is just new and the company's need for a while until they have finished their products. But it is also synonymous an entire piece of the future, whereas MPEG2 slowly to the past can be counted.
EURO 1080 has today published the HD broadcasts in MPEG2 and cease only in MPEG4 to send. Thus he follows the other HD channels ...

But you have very correctly summed ... we give the standard a while.



Antwort von Markus:

"WoWu" wrote:
I would as more emphasis on the "mostly" want ...

I have of an advanced videographers (in the positive sense) as my ideal. ;-)








Antwort von Quadruplex:

"WoWu" wrote:
EURO 1080 has today published the HD broadcasts in MPEG2 and cease only in MPEG4 to send. Thus he follows the other HD channels ...

Can you please stop times, recording formats and broadcast standards in a pot to throw? You've technically right - but it means moving and simply do nothing and lead inexperienced readers astray.

When sending coding, etc. are high in demand - that is MPEG-4 is ideal. As a recording format, the same TV channel but little (or, if it is affordable and necessary, not at all) data-reduced formats - including MPEG-4 is certainly not.



Antwort von WoWu:

@ Quadruplex

Unfortunately, this is nonsense, because what you tell.

We are talking here about compatibilities and replaceable to bit streams.
Both between camcorders, DVDs as synonymous HD TV, because that is synonymous for the benefit of consumers, it will with only a standard will have to do.
Look at times synonymous, as the hardware designs in future displays, no preference whether the monitor or TV with the introductory part will look like.

You should accept that your beloved hot HDV belongs to species extinction.

And if you get the connections between the individual elements is not achieved, it is a problem with which you have to be alone.
That is to me, however, not prevent, these connections transparently presented.
Slightly background knowledge you seem synonymous not hurt them.

And now, ask me not to do things that perhaps you might like ... substantive contributions on the basis of facts to serve all parties more than your polemic.



Antwort von judgement movie:

"WoWu" wrote:
... We are talking here about compatibilities and replaceable to bit streams.
Both between camcorders, DVDs as synonymous HD TV, because that is synonymous for the benefit of consumers, it will with only a standard will have to do.
...


... because now all (AVCHD) amateur filmmakers their stuff on TV or Kono will show ...

Thus a quark - it has never been anyone at home s.Television interested in whether his family Self video technically compatible with the signals of TV stations was.



Antwort von Markus:

"WoWu" wrote:
You should accept that your beloved hot HDV belongs to species extinction.

This applies to every aspect ever seen and in the future daseinwerdende system. For example, stone tablets are an excellent long-term durability (see archaeological finds), but they were against other, less long format archivable replaced. The useful life of a technology is also becoming shorter. ;-)



Antwort von wolfgang:

So I think we already agree on one point: between acquisition formats and broadcast formats, there probably are some differences ...
... mostly at least!



Antwort von WoWu:

Yes, Wolfgang,
consists of an I-frame only but the bitstream and the tools used are largely identical.
Tell me where else to be a difference?

But if I use the sauce of the anonymous guest watch times, so I am afraid that he did not even really know, a bit insecure.

@ Markus

The Comparison of MPEG2 with the stone slab I liked ... I see the same.



Antwort von judgement movie:

"WoWu" wrote:
But if I use the sauce of the anonymous guest watch times, so I am afraid that he did not even really know, a bit insecure.


@ WoWu: Geh 'assume that you are mistaken!

I can only stop your eternal sermons per contra AVC and HDV do not hear more!

Why do not you just accept that the possible ways the AVC undoubtedly can offer (but do not currently offer) just as quickly become outdated, as today Mpeg 2nd
If it does not succeed soon, simple and especially compatible processing solutions to present circumstances is the next standard in front of the door.
There were times when only one thing was developed and then sold - today is the pressure and especially outweigh costs so high that you can not afford failure, so will only be sold and then developed.
In fact, those who today (!) HD reliably (!) Would like to edit, HDV is better - and this is probably synonymous in the next 6 months do not change.



Antwort von WoWu:

The one has in the Introduction of Color TV synonymous words and claims, 3D TV will immediately in front of the door.

We will see it ..

Perhaps an addendum because I do not "suffer" would like to see .. Just skip my Threats .... no man is forced to read them ... So what lamentierst you?



Antwort von wolfgang:

"WoWu" wrote:
Yes, Wolfgang,
consists of an I-frame only but the bitstream and the tools used are largely identical.
Tell me where else to be a difference?


Na but the difference makes a bit from what, huh? I would therefore be the difference sometimes as a relevant difference classify.








Antwort von WoWu:

Well, Wolfgang ... But if you then follow your line of argument would, then, the television stations now, but certainly not a DVC Pro or Beta Bigi, because DVCPro has even less now with MPEG-2 to do so than with AVC-I, H.264, or Digi beta, which can only base on tape from the MAZ gets .... and what does that have anything to do with MPEG2?
There's AVC-I, but very much denser s.MPEG 4 bitstream.
Also read all the standard H.264 decoder all compliant bitstreams .... it works with neither the osBeispielen, even with the codec of the present world NLEs, in which there are 28 different coding or Devirate there .... Not for nothing is ever here in the forum after cross-and Quercodierungen asked. Is this the desired state, which many so vehemently defend?
Much as our guest anonymous but have only "shit" in front of something new, of which they are afraid not to understand it and thus desperately cling s.das what they have painstakingly hingekriegt.
But the time these people will even roll over, and ever "querer" they are, the more painful it is for them.
Let us just sit back and wait ....
Greetings to Vienna ..



Antwort von PowerMac:

"WoWu" wrote:
The one has in the Introduction of Color TV synonymous words and claims, 3D TV will immediately in front of the door. (...)


This reasoning of you was a real own goal. You kritisierst the thesis score, AVC/H.264 would probably soon return of slightly better off, if not quickly appropriate processing options for AVC exist. You suspect that there is no so fast successor of AVC (AVC after certainly has prevailed) there will be. That can be in the Introduction of AVC relate. We currently have HD with DVCProHD, HDV and HDCAM. AVC quickly that way, is equally doubtful that such an established AVC then would quickly be replaced or the then predict that there would be after the 3D color-television type. You can not form the future replacement of fixed soon you successfully AVC criticize the transfer of the argument on the replacement of the existing in favor of AVC but negative.



Antwort von WoWu:

False PM ...
the reasoning was ... we hold firmly s.etwas old, because it soon anyway something is better than AVC ... Because the intended direction was not the old foundational to defend, but the absence of new substantive argument to discredit.
In that respect, your remarks understandable without reference.



Antwort von PowerMac:

It is something new factually synonymous thereby discredit that Current has its place and there is no acute need s.Neuem exist. That this. The host said, but reasonable to believe that perhaps after AVC will be something better. Therefore, because there is still no treatment options. True to the motto: if it does not soon, skip and we take equal to the successor.



Antwort von WoWu:

PM ...
You do not really expect of me that I brainless platitudes of the anonymous guest comment?
I am sure the industry will solidify prior to his threat.

Greetings Good ... what makes the film?



Antwort von ocean5:

"Anonymous" wrote:

In fact, those who today (!) HD reliably (!) Would like to edit, HDV is better - and this is probably synonymous in the next 6 months do not change.


WoWu but has been two months ago said we should wait, gigantic will do s.Ende April, so his opinion. Millions of AVCHD accelerator chips just wait longer in PCs, etc. to be installed and new 64-bit SMP-optimized software would be synonymous with quad processing revolutionize. Alo, I think s.ihn and 4 months wait. If his prognosis is not true, then I him in the figurative sense choke gehn.



Antwort von Quadruplex:

"PowerMac" wrote:
True to the motto: if it does not soon, skip and we take equal to the successor.

Not unlikely scenario ...

The fact that I can still experience: I am of one mind with the apple users :-)



Antwort von Bruno Peter:

Why you really argue that video formats so scathing?
It is important for me as it was only on my machine currently well-edited ...
HDV can be very good and well 15MBit/Sec with AVCHD editing.
Amen!



Antwort von Quadruplex:

"WoWu" wrote:
We are talking here about compatibilities and replaceable to bit streams.

Show you look in the HD camcorder range of Thomson Broadcast, Sony or Panasonic Broadcast Broadcast around - do you see as something with MPEG-4 or AVC? It will be very little ...
But it is probably because the manufacturer wishes to their TV customers, or ignore the customers are simply too stupid, the advantages of a continuous bitstreams to recognize ...
Edit:
Mr. Wunderlich - Book Your yes leads to other activities of Da Du Dir in some form probably s.der design of various TV studios involved have: We have had 13 years in Germany, MPEG-2-based digital TV. Did you at any of your customers DVD camcorder (which would be the broadcast format s.nächsten) seen or installed? In the studios are Digibeta and Betacam, MPEG with the nix to do. And wherever man with IMX or house, I-frame MPEG-based solutions work, the broadcaster's signal with nothing to do. In the best case you save through a few hardware Decodier-/Encodierdurchgänge quality. For the Austrahlung's will but in any case, again by the MPEG encoder hunted. For the result, it is quite wurst, whether by a umkomprimiertes SDI digital encoder sends signal to the house or with I-frame MPEG and data rates (for PAL) of 25 Mbps or more works.








Antwort von Quadruplex:

"Bruno Peter" wrote:
Why argue so your video to these formats so scathing?

I usually synonymous no preference - each animalcule his Plaisirchen.
It's annoying, if this inexperienced visitors through less relevant details about a purchase may be wrong.



Antwort von ocean5:

... and constantly asked, "THE BOOK" to buy ...



Antwort von Bruno Peter:

Must not buy ...
Look what the politicians want to sell every day ...



Antwort von Quadruplex:

"Bruno Peter" wrote:
Look what the politicians want to sell every day ...

Au, yes - I will advise the unspeakable Hessä times.
New Schmutzkapagne: "Tougher penalties for AVCHD supporters" :-)



Antwort von wolfgang:

"Quadruplex" wrote:

New Schmutzkapagne: "Tougher penalties for AVCHD supporters" :-)


That was good!
:))

But somewhere in this thread slips again any sense.



Antwort von ocean5:

@ Quadruplex

Quote:
We have had 13 years in Germany, MPEG-2-based digital TV. Did you at any of your customers DVD camcorder (which would be the broadcast format s.nächsten) seen or installed?


Your Time I do not know, because for me it is only 10years, since I've even Autumn 97 in the first digital broadcaster in Germany, "put into the air." Therefore, I can the other 3 years do not understand.
Now to the formats:
Sonywollte already in 1997 a LMS on DVD (blue laser) with base install GoP structure. Fortunately, the rejected. Instead, an MPEG2 broadcast server (MC2/DEC).

The answer to your question is: YES

[quote] In the studios are Digibeta and Betacam, MPEG with the nix to do. And wherever man with IMX or house, I-frame MPEG-based solutions work ....[ code]

Betacam (except SP) is an MPEG format.
Digibeta is a (like MPEG) to DCT base with GoP structure.
MPEG IMX is a comp. Format.
What is with XDCAM? All MPEG formats.
Reduced data format, therefore, in the broadcasting mainly before. !
These are all no! I-frame based format. Even Digi-Beta is [b] not [/ b] I-frame only!

[quote ]...., the broadcaster's signal with nothing to do. In the best case you save through a few hardware Decodier-/Encodierdurchgänge quality. For the Austrahlung's will but in any case, again by the MPEG encoder hunted. [/ Quote]

... that is a fact of IRT repeatedly been demanded. Unfortunately it has still not managed Sonybis, non-proprietary format in the machine to bring. With the success that over Baseband constantly had to be changed and a new code to the known losses led.
There are innumerable studies of the IRT and the IEEE on how detrimental the cascading of the algorithms in Picture effect.
And the word "quality" in your article is almost under, but it is the key word. If you're so disqualifizierst that you say: quality facts for you to play virtually no role, then we need not discuss next.

Your statement [quote] For the result, it is quite wurst, whether by a umkomprimiertes SDI digital encoder sends signal to the house or with I-frame MPEG and data rates (for PAL) of 25 Mbps or more works. [/ Quote]
stands in stark contrast to the IRT studies and a strong indication that this information still needed.

You see, it is quite long with datenreduziertem material worked in broadcasting and you have the shortcomings that are identified resulting in the development and work for a cross-cutting procedure process.
And that is the strength of the H.264.
I admit that it is for those who are not so deeply in the matter is perhaps somewhat difficult to explain the links to see the same, but they should be denied, would only reveal the ignorance.

It would be nice, did you predict more accurately informed.



Antwort von ocean5:

.. maybe a brief addendum ..
Incidentally, the SMPTE straight from the experiences in the past a "Recommended Practice" Paper published by the compatibility of the signals provides the opportunity for companies to return their "house" and thus incompatible format to bring to prevent.



Antwort von WoWu:

... ah, always the case with the log-in .... tja,



Antwort von Bernd E.:

Even though I am such a theory debates with only marginal interest, here are my two questions:

"Anonymous" wrote:
... Betacam (except SP) is an MPEG format ...

Betacam and Betacam SP are still both analog format at the beginning or middle of the 1980s were introduced. What comes into play MPEG?

"Anonymous" wrote:
IMX ... .. These are all no! I-frame based format ...

What's up? To my knowledge, IMX has a GOP-length of 1, consists exclusively of I-frames.

Gruß Bernd E.








Antwort von WoWu:

@ Bernd

Related to Betacam Betacam SX, ie after the first SP dig.Form.
Digi beta has I, B, I, B, etc. and you have right of course, IMX is I-frame only, - my fault, sorry-but has the disadvantage that there is no standard MPEG decoder can make use of it and you need IMX Decoder ... may be synonymous in any NLE system to understand his.
Therefore one could such a format is not synonymous broadcast servers need.

And once again to understand .. I do not synonymous hassles me to this theory debates, but if someone because of his semi oplatendünnen accused, I would camcorders with new purchases of the wrong information, then it should be a little more information content into the matter.
So, again sorry for the IMX provide, your correction was not entirely correct.



Antwort von kurt95:

Completely pointless debate ...



Antwort von Quadruplex:

"WoWu" wrote:
Your Time I do not know, because for me it is only 10years, since I had in the autumn of 97 (..)

Oh, Mr. Wunderlich!
Google is your friend: The keywords are called DF1, Kirch, 1995 and Digital Television. Kirch in 1995 at the radio exhibition already drummed, Astra (keyword: digitaltaugliches LNB) busy with - obviously, they have then to 96 but still needed until the store ran.
"WoWu" wrote:
It would be nice, did you predict more accurately informed.

Me, too - see your synonymous numerous errors. There is the knowledge oplatendünne probably again in 'steamroller come ne ... If I ever come into the embarrassment should be a TV studio are planning to have, I know who I do not guarantee hiring.

Mr. Wunderlich: You write in an advertisement for your book here in the forums and in your bright moments themselves: "Who would like to understand why he is not yet AVCHD camcorder buy, although significantly AVC is better than HDV .." Why do you then constantly with TV broadcast standards? Here you have several people already stated that for amateur filmmakers are irrelevant. The changes are not synonymous, incidentally by constant repetition ...



Antwort von Videophreak:

Madness, how the people here get into the hair. From technical Page forth, I (still) too little.

Nevertheless, I would synonymous with the AVCHD (h.264) preference. You can be happy about the MPEG4 stream scold, but the problem is here just in computing power, in my opinion. If I were with a Windows 3.11 would have to cut videos, I would probably synonymous with standard Def in AVI format rant ...

Apart from this, I find it a hindrance in a forum where "ignorant" like smart, you take information only misunderstandings to read. If someone really knows with the matter, and his knowledge would like to share synonymous (synonymous've already seen other !!!), then I find this a very nice gesture synonymous if I one or the other thing not immediately understand.

I think it is synonymous not right technology s.einer noted, if there is something better there. Had all men this attitude we would still in horse carriages through the area and eggs by candlelight punchcards bite instead of saving bulb into the computer screen. HDV is sometimes the fact Leo, that it necessarily is based on tape. In all areas of consumer electronics, the tape suppressed. And with the one exception that in recording studios s.besten still analog tape machines should be used (because of saturation), this repression synonymous entitled. The future belongs to the detention storage, and they are with 16GB (SDHC) more than the capacity of the MiniDV tape. (okay, although it cost a lot, but the memory card can be synonymous often write about - the tape wirds of times to critical times ...)

Wait times how we AVCHD with a fast quad can edit ... How long is finally good.

Lg,
Markus



Antwort von felix75:

"Videophreak" wrote:
... The future belongs to the detention storage, and they are with 16GB (SDHC) more than the capacity of the MiniDV tape. (okay, although it cost a lot, but the memory card can be synonymous often write about - the tape wirds of times to critical times ...)


I think for an average of ¬ 2 per tape, it is unnecessary to multiple use - there is not only an inexpensive recording media, but practically "free" synonymous to the same Archivirungs-(back up) option. - For me, incidentally, is still the criterion ko Flash based (AVCHD) devices - along with the bad editing.



Antwort von Videophreak:

"Anonymous" wrote:

I think for an average of ¬ 2 per tape, it is unnecessary to use multiple


Dear "Anonymous"

from an economic standpoint, because I am of your opinion. In the two euro is really irrelevant. That is what I did not. Each new tape has increased particulate pollution and the loss (sensitive anyway!) MiniDV drive more and more and more. Yes, there are cleaning cartridges, which is synonymous always a horror for the video head. The camera regularly of the specialist workshop is clean because surely the better option. Nevertheless it can be propagated at any time to drop-outs come when the whole mechanism is dirty. That in my opinion, optimal use of cassette window is the short period of time during which the tape inside the camera no longer vollschweinert, and still no drop-outs has. But this is now very short. Apart from that I have the tapes to VHS already amassed times do not like. If I eh everything on DVD archive and those new to regular DVDs and burn the vob data on hard drive archive, then I need no armada of cassettes. Since I prefer two or three 750GB external hard disks. The move I (s.PC connect! * Gg *) a few times a year and ready. For Browsing, I have the DVDs. Tape ade, I say only ... tape is the time with old and brittle, will require a drive, (which are increasingly rare synonymous ...), and man, it must still synonymous correct (ie below!) store, and one to two times a year out and her coils . If I do all my videos all on MiniDV archive, then I come out of the rewinding tape so no more out. Synonymous is a question of time. And in the end it's not on the medium itself, but on the content. HDV would be interesting if the (in my opinion much too narrow) specifications encourage recording on hard disk or flash memory allows. But no, you have everything up so stubborn tape ban ...

"Anonymous" wrote:

For me, incidentally, is still the criterion ko Flash based (AVCHD) devices - along with the bad editing.


The editing has NOTHING with the media to do so. She was alone with the industry to do, and with its own wallet ... - My opinion. AVCHD with a potent and a calculator gscheiten cut software? Yes, I would like that. Only me, unfortunately, lacks the money for a PowerMac or a quad Xeon with Intel x-GB RAM and and Other ..

AVCHD to verteufeln only because it is still in its infancy is not the right way. Or would it have been right, the DVD is at times its market-Introduction of hate Triade suspend just because the first DVD player than 10,000 schillings (jaaaa. .. I'm from VIENNA! * Ggg *) cost? - But not yet ... where is the "pioneering idea" of the video - film and film gone? We like the challenge but all, or?

LG,
Markus



Antwort von Videophreak:

"Anonymous" wrote:

For me, incidentally, is still the criterion ko Flash based (AVCHD) devices.


If I have a ...:

DU run with a portable CD player around, or you have an iPod Nano or similar MP3 player? - What I mean by saying ... everything from home and thus contributes herumläuft is s.besten with unmoving parts (flash memory) ... ) As resistant to shock, and consuming less power!

Lg,
Markus



Antwort von felix75:

"Videophreak" wrote:
is s.besten with unmoving parts (flash memory) ... ) As resistant to shock, and consuming less power!

It is, except in special cases, not advisable anyway, a camera out and overly herzustoßen. Since, however, rather Optics, a viewfinder attachment to fracture or something else as the drive mechanism. Since then uses Flash not synonymous.
What power is concerned, may be yes. However, the drive does not eat the entire electricity alone. There are displays / viewfinders and not forgetting the signal processor, which it can be very hot (heat means high energy). A hot drive I've never seen.
In addition, the power would be synonymous taster. There is for almost any MiniDV Camera Batteries, the three or more hours to create.
Then the space: MiniDV holds about 13 GB per tape and then it cost 2 euros. How much flash memory you get for it?
So more must be compressed and the picture does not really good.



Antwort von Bernd E.:

"Videophreak" wrote:
"Anonymous" wrote:

For me, incidentally, is still the criterion ko Flash based (AVCHD) devices.

... or do you have an iPod Nano or similar MP3 player?

I think the knock-out criterion based purely on the archiving option, with the flash shots now times cumbersome than tape. Music on the MP3 player on the other hand, it is estimated desöfteren against new computer - here, rather than the video archiving.

Gruß Bernd E.








Antwort von Videophreak:

"Anonymous" wrote:

It is, except in special cases, not advisable anyway, a camera out and overly herzustoßen. Since, however, rather Optics, a viewfinder attachment to fracture or something else as the drive mechanism.


* sigh *
So, since you have the camera already intentionally while scraps, so that the optics or the Viewfinder is received (if any still exist ...) abreißt ...

"Anonymous" wrote:

What power is concerned, may be yes. However, the drive does not eat the entire electricity alone.


Well, I know just yet. Although I can still learn a lot. * ggg *

"Anonymous" wrote:

There are displays / viewfinders and not forgetting the signal processor, which it can be very hot (heat means high energy). A hot drive I've never seen.


No. a hot drive, I have never seen synonymous. But a drive, which is due to temperature differences among education suffers condensation and the tape that agglutinated. Very finely sowas. And when the camera is running slightly smaller, and thus the microphone is close s.Laufwerk ... naja .. should I continue to write? Or if I reichts in virtual space "sirrrrre"? ;)

"Anonymous" wrote:

In addition, the power would be synonymous taster. There is for almost any MiniDV Camera Batteries, the three or more hours to create.


Well, I think the issue of power NIE "taster". Mir is still too early to even out the flow, because I have not pointed compatriots have enough power with them. Admittedly, this is my own problem, but not the video camera head rotate must reserve for other vital systems.

"Anonymous" wrote:

Then the space: MiniDV holds about 13 GB per tape and then it cost 2 euros. How much flash memory you get for it?
So more must be compressed and the picture does not really good.


Who says that just because it is flash memory, you must compress more? I would do so the bitrate is synonymous to the highest level to ensure the best possible Qualiät to get. How it ever been in another thread mentioned, it is a matter of time. Eventually, the flash memory price slide into the cellar. And then you stop buying more, as people like you around, more batteries to buy the beloved head and the rest around it to keep s.Laufen. It's just a redeployment. Once the cost of the medium will speak moderately easy, and sorry if I write it now, do nothing more for the tape. Each medium's time! :)

Lg,
Markus



Antwort von Videophreak:

"Bernd E." wrote:
"Videophreak" wrote:
"Anonymous" wrote:

For me, incidentally, is still the criterion ko Flash based (AVCHD) devices.

... or do you have an iPod Nano or similar MP3 player?

I think the knock-out criterion based purely on the archiving option, with the flash shots now times cumbersome than tape. Music on the MP3 player on the other hand, it is estimated desöfteren against new computer - here, rather than the video archiving.

Gruß Bernd E.


So do the ghosts * g *

For me, the archiving to tape the KO criterion. If I want to receive something, what I might later on wants to work, then I would not be synonymous to remove tape but to hard drive. I do not want the impression to other people, I would deny the tape. No absolutely not. Everyone must choose his medium. And yes, I myself have yet synonymous MiniDV cameras, which I use. I do not oppose it on principle. But I have no fear synonymous with the time to go and to experiment. It is a medium of blind to think I just pity.



Antwort von Bernd E.:

"Videophreak" wrote:
... have no fear synonymous with the time to go and to experiment. It is a medium of blind to think I just pity.

In principle I agree with you completely as to: the medium is a means to an end, and advisable that you select from which purpose s.besten met. Just because something new on the market, but it is not of equal a priori better. Again, this finding may have an outcome of his experimentation.
In the professional field it is no different: For some users, the SxS or P2 system a revelation, for others it simply unusable. Therefore, yes at the moment so many curious about the upcoming SonyHVR-S270, as they simultaneously recording to tape and CF card. If the camera does not have any childhood illnesses, I was currently the most sensible system.

Gruß Bernd E.



Antwort von Videophreak:

"Bernd E." wrote:

In principle I agree with you completely as to: the medium is a means to an end, and advisable that you select from which purpose s.besten met.


Absolutely correct. It is a means to an end. And if I am now a film maker would be a lot of money so would earn, then I would synonymous in other dimensions "float". About DVCProHD, which is largely synonymous nor tape recorded. But if we are of Consumer cams that are in the hands of the "Otto-Normal consumers' land, then the image quality is important, but not the holy grail. How many "amateur filmmakers" cut because the filmed material? Do you specify a percentage? - There are so many factors that play ...

"Bernd E." wrote:

Just because something new on the market, but it is not of equal a priori better. Again, this finding may have an outcome of his experimentation.


True word. The MiniDisc was synonymous again, and it is therefore better than the CD or MP3? - I think not.

"Bernd E." wrote:

In the professional field it is no different: For some users, the SxS or P2 system a revelation, for others it simply unusable.


Yes, I agree with you fully and completely synonymous with. Because synonymous memory card if I prefer, I find the development of a new format again counter-productive. Why SxS cards anyway if the memory stick there. Or SD ... or CF ... or the cuckoo knows what else ...

What I s.tape incidentally synonymous something paralyzing think is capturing what happens in real time, yes. * yawn * - memory cards or hard disks called us to "drag & drop" welcome. And that's just fine!

Lg
Markus



Antwort von Bernd E.:

"Videophreak" wrote:
... How many "amateur filmmakers" cut because the filmed material? Do you specify a percentage ...

Whether the number according to scientific standards, is reliable, I doubt, but I remember something of around 15% have read. Somewhat realistic in any case it should be.

Gruß Bernd E.



Antwort von Videophreak:

"Bernd E." wrote:

Whether the number according to scientific standards, is reliable, I doubt, but I remember something of around 15% have read. Somewhat realistic in any case it should be.
Gruß Bernd E.


Well, that's more than I expected. And on those 15% are companies whose survival depends on it, that people buy their products, no obligations. Otherwise that would have never been a boom in the DVD cams, which the remaining 85% of camcorder users who do NOT cut, super arrived. And since NO ONE asks for the codec, according to the bit rate, according to a focus ring or a 25p mode. The call just after HD for all, and "I want to see me like s.Television".

As such, I find it really super eh of companies such as Panasonic, which with the latest AVCHD cams as much as possible try this balancing act to create space for a few good products to offer. I've synonymous "gehobenere" Claims s.einen camcorder. And when I look at my request camcorder could put together, it would rather FX7 with a hard drive or Memory Stick look like, roughly speaking. And because I have not yet bonzoiden Calculator can afford, I would prefer synonymous the MPEG2. Once the gap of lack of computing power is closed, is the real me s.Allerwertesten over whether the jetz MPEG2 or AVCHD h.264 is. Well almost ... h.264 has reserves upwards and is modern and effective ... * hihi *;)

Lg,
Markus



Antwort von felix75:

"Videophreak" wrote:

What I s.tape incidentally synonymous something paralyzing think is capturing what happens in real time, yes. * yawn * - memory cards or hard disks called us to "drag & drop" welcome. And that's just fine!
Lg
Markus


How useful the saved time during capture, if we consider the possible coding Decodierprozesse and double and triple dranhängen need - for me at the moment makes AVCHD still does not make sense - I am, however, if the computing power for this kind of affordable, versatile software solutions , corresponding to large memory cards exist and are affordable and the standards / codecs are aligned. I think this is the earliest 1 -2 years in the case ...



Antwort von felix75:

"Anonymous" wrote:

How useful the saved time during capture, if we consider the possible coding Decodierprozesse and double and triple dranhängen need - for me at the moment makes AVCHD still does not make sense - I am, however, if the computing power for this kind of affordable, versatile software solutions , corresponding to large memory cards exist and are affordable and the standards / codecs are aligned. I think this is the earliest 1 -2 years in the case ...


That is yes in principle, my stance on AVCHD ... Once the computing power is affordable, there are door and gate open. At the moment it is difficult, I admit to anyway. Have been synonymous because my strongest gezetert Calculator synonymous with AVCHD as his love has not. Nevertheless, I know through research that this is the direction in which the technology will develop. How to s.der new generation of cameras that are now March / April of Canon, Panasonic and Sonyrauskommen, can see. I am a man who truly looks forward rather than with, order it now exaggerated way, tears in his eyes water looks backward and sees MPEG2 as getting smaller and smaller ... ;)

At the moment anyway, I get even more "next", because in my HD yet has received no indentation. As for me, but does not prevent herumzuprobieren, rehearsal recordings to make, and me with the matter more deeply. So I stay up-to-date and can, as soon as finances permit, exactly the right part for me to buy. :)

Lg,
Markus



Antwort von Videophreak:

Sorry, ... I had forgotten to register ... * sigh *

Lg,
Markus









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