Newsmeldung von slashCAM: Essays: When will the Nikon full-format HD-Still Image-CAM? Of rob - 7 Jan 2008 15:59:00 > Long it took, but now are the Manufacturer of cameras arrived back there, where they carry a little over 100 years, started: In small format - (synonymous full format sensor called). Proudly present the Canon and Nikon in the world their top cameras with either new-sounding names like "FX format" (Nikon) or simply "Full" (Canon) - always hides behind the good old retail formats. Once with 12.1 megapixels and once with 16.7 Megapixels covered. Back, we are synonymous with the lenses, when Grandpa is still in the cupboard, partly sauscharf are so wonderful and silky-mechanically to operate.
Antwort von kurt95:
who has since written the text, oh man ... the laugh of the year so far:-D
Antwort von ?:
SLR? VIDEO? WHAT?
Antwort von rob:
Hello Guest,
I can still remember well off, how many of the first considerations to RED CAM have dismissed as unrealistic - we just look at how the development in full-format HD sensor is next ... I type on players, there will soon be mitmischen, of which we at first glance would not suspected ...
... and to provide you with even more joy to it ;-) ...
Sigma would be for me with a more fully developed Foveon sensor synonymous nor a candidate on the speculation list.
Many greetings
Rob
Antwort von kurt95:
That was then, but only by Livewiew via the display and the mirror stays up. I can not imagine that mirror the high 24mal flaps per second over long period of time long endure ...
VG
Martin
Antwort von rob:
Hello Martin,
the mirror, you can - as far as I know - all better SLRs today lock - a live-off needs it anyway.
Many greetings
Rob
Antwort von Bernd E.:
... Player, there will soon be mitmischen, of which we at first glance would not suspected ... Interesting speculation! Photo companies like Nikon, Olympus and Pentax had already time to analog camcorder in the program, if only synonymous renamed other cameras Manufacturer.
But even if you would like to suggest that, for example, Nikon will soon own HD camcorder on the market wants, I doubt strongly that this is founded on basic SLR with mechanical vibration levels would be. But the sensor size would be great, and what Lowlight Schär depth is concerned!
... "Full" (Canon) ... with 16.7 Megapixels ... With the recently introduced EOS-1Ds Mark III is Canon has already won at 21 mega pixels arrived.
Gruß Bernd E.
Antwort von rob:
Hello Bernd,
Yes, the Mark III is already somewhere in the mega-pixel nirvana arrived :-)
Antwort von WoWu:
Has anyone ever bothered themselves with the memory technology to be tackled ...
In cameras with large sensors (and names) of up to 3 Gbit / s computer .... I speak to up to 124 flash cards
at the same time.
You may not always be a Denkstufe stop too early and not believe the camera has only one sensor.
If you look solely at the Logistc at the store, and it's "only" the P2 viewing times, you will understand why people are reluctant to significantly over 100 Mbit / s is also keen.
But there are still quite a lot of other reasons.
Antwort von rob:
Hello Wolfgang,
about the nature of the video has not been spoken.
I see several possibilities:
Anyone who wants to tap direct signal, which needs a fast Festplattenraid s.der Page - without a doubt. Personally, I would be a 4:2:2 10 bit SDI signal completely rich. For shots in a controlled studio environment wonderfully - more must Nikon did not do for me ;-) And if only they can deliver 4:4:4, then we must halt the raid a bit more stable construction.
Who is modular / mobile and thus wants to have more complex needs of Nikon corresponding DSPs convince: Because there should be something for every taste type. Verlusfreie Compression, slightly lossy compression to high compression via H.264. Apple's ProRes codec needs in the best quality grade slightly to the 220 Mbps. Of Panasonic P2 cards can be transmitted with 640 Mbps, a bit slower to write. It was about the right balance between compression / transfer rate and storage media - similar to RED CAM.
Where this converter, is also already been answered differently. It may be behind the external camera to be switched as in a IO-HD box or in the camera are integrated. Texas Instruments falls to me as spontaneous as a supplier of real-time DSP chips, which in all sorts of video to convert. Those things are damn small.
Many greetings
Rob
Antwort von WoWu:
Hi Rob.
That would in fact good and feasible solutions ... However, slightly awkward in the mobile operating ... but conceivable.
Basically, I agree with you since agreed that we would chip the camera, so Lens and almost nothing more to it.
It calmed me slightly that the chips are slightly larger, because of the low pixel pitches for follow have seen in the newer products ...
But it is certainly an exciting time, just the camera umgehängt and then filmed kicking it off ... there is probably still quite a while including a backpack. But of course all feasible, I am absolutely in Dir
Antwort von rob:
It calmed me slightly that the chips are slightly larger Quite your opinion - also can be granddads 35mm Lenses again with an appropriate adapter / mount exploit - what a pleasure :-)
Many greetings
Rob
Antwort von WoWu:
Now the only consumer companies to get, not always their own (cheap)-tiny assembled.
Have you actually pixel rates up to date? my last stand of 2006 and is said 0.1 per pixel EURc ... but I can at the current pixel size somehow do not believe .... (too expensive) so it must be between 2006 and today pretty much priced models. Have you given information?
But the thing with Grandpa's prime, I would think again ... when I see what is happening in the lens development in the last 10 years has done ... But for the nostalgic Shut sure what times. Unfortunately so synonymous but then the whole controlled features of the cameras is not more .... and that, I think, would be the biggest surprise when suddenly weggerechnete all this stuff would be there again ....
But development is interesting and I look at the NAB tense. Finally, once a year in which to correct what can be done.
Antwort von rob:
Well, there is such a legendary couple Nikore - but I will now not next swarm of ...
Basically, my unprocessed original picture from the CAM rather than a nice effect. But as internal signal amplification is usually better than later - therefore, there is of it to see exactly how much internal processing of a signal would have before it is external.
Since Nikon will make a head drum ...
Many greetings
Rob
Antwort von kurt95:
I constantly compare synonymous with apples pears.
It is absolutely absurd to change the image data and the one with the camera a Vildeokamera to compare.
Antwort von WoWu:
Erklär times the exact difference?
Antwort von B.DeKid:
... Have you actually pixel rates up to date? my last stand of 2006 and is said 0.1 per pixel EURc ... . Yes this is in some way see Prices for Mamiya or Haselblad
Also here are the erwähten medium format cameras at more than 20 mega pixels!
see the absolute HIT !!!!!!
http://www.hasselblad.de/promotions/h3dii.aspx
Yet again the above-mentioned ideas "shooting" with a camera or the use of "Grandpa's" lenses
So ne photo shoot with camera is not there, because the mirror technique, if not synonymous to the mirror states.
This is done with the long-term or macro photography. Here, the vibration of the mirror at the Down / Up valves causes. Thus, the picture remains sharp.
Besides, even mentioned, we are talking of 20 000 euros and more, for only the rear part of a Digi Mamiya or Hasselblad, which is synonymous nor s.eine Mamiya 645 RS 1000 can attach.
Granddads Lenses
So Canon FD Lenses reserved in the macro or landscape photography is still the absolute Hammer.
And a Voigtländer Lens Heliar can equal synonymous times the price of a Canon EOS 400D reach and is synonymous purely mechanich.
Still Image Still Image and is film is film. Whether digital or analog is better depends on the applications. Where it should go quickly, of course, digital is now the leader. (News / News / Home snapshots)
But in the arts scene is the medium of film roll is still the first choice in the area reserved photography.
See Survey Professional Photo 1 / 08 achieved here analog B / W photography! 80%! Sure .... a Kodak Pro 400TMax B / W film is probably all in the area reserved for digital photography.
Conclusion a digital SLR for the vorknippsen use it with an analog SLR Knipps after ... and the result with a Durchlichtscanner a scanner. And for video / film footage using a video camera.
@ Rob
But a nice idea you formulierst here, but I think that all developments in the digital SLR Still Image Technology reserved synonymous in the development of video cameras is included. See Canon, for example, here is probably most well-worked hand in hand.
Alla MfG
B. DeKid
Antwort von B.DeKid:
Erklär times the exact difference? Sure glad :-)
With an EOS 400D (10.1 mega pixels) shot RAW recording is about 8 + MB
So 8 + MB x 25 FPS = 200 + MB per sec x 60 sec = 1200 + MB per min x 90 min = 1080000 + MB for a 90 min movie! The 108 TB!
or around 108 TB plates x 320, - Euro = 34560,-Euro
That's the difference ;-)
According to this report is filming the Red One 8000MB / 270sek = about 30 MB / sec = about 1.2 MB per frame at 25 FPS is expected
http://www.dv.com/features/features_item.php?articleId=196603549
"The only option for recording media that first day which is Red's 8GB CF card. That's 4 1 / 2 minutes of 4K s.24p-roughly the equivalent of a 400-foot film load."
That is just about 1 / 10 of a RAW recording an EOS 400D and not a RAW recording an EOS 1 D!
Incidentally that is absolute nonsense to have such amounts of data a head shut because of machineless a few good server should use. Not to consider the number of memory module.
But nevertheless a nice idea because Rob had and certainly worth :-)
___________________________
So there are 2 definitions:
The scientist (and windows, linux, RAM manufacturers ,...):
1024 bytes = 1 KB
1024 KB = 1 MB
1024 MB = 1 GB
1024 GB = 1 TB
...
The industry (plates motherboard buses ,...)
1000 bytes = 1 KB
1000 KB = 1 MB
1000 MB = 1 GB
1000 GB = 1 TB
...
According to T P, E, Z, Y
See http://www.wer-weiss-was.de/theme19/article2791533.html
____________________
MfG
B. DeKid
PS. No guarantee for the above account
Antwort von Monsta:
I think you've got yourself a little as charged!
Let's go through it again:
8 MB per frame (x25)
200 MB per second (x60)
12000 MB per minute (x90)
1080000 MB per movie
This corresponds to
1,08 TB. Although this is still a lot, but technically feasible.
And the images of the RED still fairly small, so is synonymous s.Codec.
Antwort von felix75:
I would generally only in raw film - because even if:-D
Antwort von B.DeKid:
I think you've got yourself a little as charged!
.... 1080000 MB per movie
This corresponds to 1,08 TB.
Although this is still a lot, but technically feasible.
:-) Jupp zero and forget later invented this for 2 :-))))
"Apology after publishing s.Suchen" .... Hmmm, it was still so early ;-)))) thank you Mnsta, so I wrote quite a precaution times "without warranty" :-)
Antwort von felix75:
Suppose it would now "only" 2 megapixels, that is. HD, and we want to compress data to save them. Alone of the computational costs would be for a passively cooled video camera battery too immense:
2000000 pixels * 50 frames * 3 Interpolationsrechnungen compression dimensions * 3 * 3 colors = 1.8 GHz
This creates ne RED, which has 4kg Batteries synonymous with them.
Antwort von WoWu:
So the issue of data handling is not really me, as long as it is in the known magnitude moves. By this I mean the use of a decent reduction algorithm. The Vipers of this world try so now with RAW data and to deal safely with 3 Gbit / s is a challenge. But Rob has already mentioned that the data reduced the area paths are feasible.
The question is just me? Where to go with the pictures? And I do not think what memory ... but on which the display. Going once only assume that the human vision at 6 lp / mm ends, then I do not know whether anyone necessarily 15M screen in the living room wants to do.
I think the big advantage lies in Pixelbinning and the associated possibility of decent pictures of a decent optics on the way and once this Mikroskopiewahn of the sensors to leave. Then on the chip size synonymous nor space for the additional transistors for the g-shutter. Also in the Einchipversion would be the possibility, despite Farbmaske Photo enough space for a healthy Resolutionzu offer. We could then finally back to using Aperture, without at 5.6 in the diffraction to go ... then if you still want to use mechanical apertures. Even with the question of depth is likely to be done, because they are either from Lens ... electronical or even could be made .... That would be for me the benefits of such a camera .... by s.Pixelbinning I could even then the resolution of my image to my target medium adjust ... So even if someone wants to make 4k ... it's drum, he ...
It is for me the memory debate, unless they land on flash, secondary. The breaking of the bottleneck Lens / sensor would charm for me.
Antwort von WoWu:
.. perhaps make a comment, just for the sake of completeness:
I know that slomo things tougher, but think who slomo need to get specialized equipment.
So 50p would give me enough.
Antwort von PeterM:
Guest wrote
"It's absolutely absurd to change the image data and the one with the camera to compare a Vildeokamera"
Na so aburd is not now. The Red is very similar processes, and provides a bayered RAW with the only difference that the signal is compressed.
Incidentally. Who says that in the future vision devices at 24bit color always have to stay.
One reason why we have ordered the RED is beside the resolution, the 36-bit color, which in our specific case is essential.
True is sure that the signal processing and storage is a huge problem, which is synonymous RED makes zuschaffen ..
Ultimately, however, must be at the ask who the audience for ne 30 fps full format is Nikon or Canon. Ultimately expected 3,500 pre RED's in the dimensions of Mr. Nikon or Canon more likely to be peanut.
Such high data rates are synonymous the next year a KO criterion for EB'ler or Pro / Consumer his.
The image quality is possible in this area is just one factor among many.
For us and our application would be a dream, until then, we hold RED
Antwort von WoWu:
And the red synonymous currently only makes 2k and 4k times when it makes 32bit likely the Canons of this world make synonymous.
The advantage of the Canon is probably that the sensors in 100,000 quantities and cheap to buy and accordingly the production is established.
The strength of the Red (for those who want it), is so synonymous in the RAW data. Those who are used to the camera and accessories have the appropriate software and the NLE will bind to the leg, for which is ok. But then we talk synonymous over $ 60T. But this is just a philosophy question.
The other question which arises is, where do you want with the 32-bit, if you do not do film and even then .. I can still s.die Discussion on the 2006 media days, remember when it came to these parameters against the background of the recovery chain "film" to change .... synonymous and the discussion of the associated costs. So until there is agreement, there is the RED-long stand in the museum.
But, as I said above, my goal would be neither raw nor 300Fps still 32 bits, and synonymous not 4k. (Not for nothing makes the series so far no model). My goal would be flawless artifact-free images in 2k 50p .... And that is likely with the Canons of this world very soon be feasible.
Antwort von PeterM:
"And the red synonymous currently only makes 2k"
That is not quite true. The Red is currently including 4K 32bit wavelet compressed RAW. Only 4K + uncompressed output is not, and will probably not go as synonymous.
Why you may need 32 bits. For example, as an intermediate step for Domemaster.
Ultimately, wherever you are in the direction of said flat-rate HDR go.
But as I said these are special applications.
As I have said for industrial or prosumer EB include other criteria aben uch, and I agree with you on artifact-free images.
Antwort von WoWu:
The fascinating s.den current developments, I just think that soon everyone the choice of a suitable camera has. Hence, RED because something moves. I just wonder whether it is really a new camera (Scarlet) need to bring out without the orders for the old model to reduce ... but I do not want RED unstop discussion and for such industrial applications synonymous from cost point of view an interesting product ... But, of course, synonymous the infrastructure.
Only difference is basically synonymous not just of such a "fictitious" Canon model, because the raw data are here and there before. It is a matter of routing ... and the following course of storage or acceptance.
I do not in any case already a CameraLink s.Markt that one "of top-down" and can configure the charm would be precisely the size match, but still so small the double-35mm movie format. Lenses are also from the mechanical behavior is not necessarily what is needed for video and the camera men are now about the ergonomics loud yelp, but it would be a start in the direction of really good quality.
And all the male nor the prices of the RED.
Antwort von felix75:
Ever think about
professional DSLR has videos to teach for Nikon and Canon only fairly complete nonsense. Mirror lock, what? The people, the 2K or 4K really need to buy any
The camera can be synonymous videos ...
And who really need 4K (please be realistic!)? Who can the volume of trade? I buy me but not synonymous to 1500 hp carts for the morning drive to work! Furthermore, there is a reason that good 35mm lenses often cost 10000 $ +. What helps the chip when the coolest imaging performance is not enough of Optics (Canon FD honor). The Red 4K + discussion is anyway too much hot air ... American Marketing
Mir goes thee domestic competition from 2K:
http://www.pstechnik.de/en/digitalfilm-si2k.phphttp://www.gsvitec.com/dcinema-products-camera.php These are solid cams. This a good hire Optics and remember it
perfect enough ... ;)
Antwort von WoWu:
In the core of your statement, you have so right .... I've synonymous top of pixel binning, aimed to achieve good images.
And who needs 2k?
After all, the EBU Recommendation for future television.
Maybe not even tomorrow.
With the optics, I give you right, just that the old speed-primes were so expensive because they are in a time were built as HD optics have not been asked and the corresponding numbers were lower and because the luminous names were on it.
The development of today's modern HD optics is already light years than the next-optics were 10 years ago.
Good, sensible ENG Lenses are still in a 5-digit range, but that is essentially synonymous in that they have to 2 / 3 "and a focal of 7-10 mm down them. 50mm or more are again significantly cheaper in the production .... Add to that the quantities, because the technology giant in quantities in the photo industry. synergy here is the magic word.
With 4-k, I'm going to do right, maybe some special applications, but certainly not the mass market.
And what concerns the links ... not everyone wants in proprietary RAW data and work of an unknown software company dependent.
And the second link .... I do not know, singel 1 / 2 "CCD ... so really ... but rather because the EX1, which is synonymous with 2k but at least 3 chips, because if you're in your recommendation synonymous nor the mask of the Resolutionabzieht how much interpolation it is probably because, until they reach 2k? synonymous And again as RAW .... depends so again the whole post-pro tuned with software that maybe tomorrow is no longer supported ... and how is that with the service for such devices?
Ferry bath since I sods?
Antwort von Maik:
I got me sum now not read,
but allow me the following note:
The shutter of my admittedly somewhat older Nikon D70 (Digi SLR
more consumer class) is with a life span of approximately 100,000
Trippings specified.
For the professional models are Nikon mostly at ~ 150,000 trippings.
What one hears it begins for most ConsumerSLRs already with
60,000 trippings the elderly age.
So if I (fudged 100,000) constructed by 25 times, then I could with
Click 66.666 minutes of my video making, it would end.
For me it is a pity.
So have a video - DigiSLR All Verschluss-/Sucherkonzept
revised. Instead lamella / sealing slit aperture is circulating.
And where are we? Even. In Film-/Videokameras (and that rather
larger chips are like a new SLRs Verschlussystem is more likely
So this whole Chose above pure speculation).
M.
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Maik
No one speaks seriously of a camera to use. It is the combination of lens and, more importantly, the sensor, because synonymous throughout the docking of saving is not clear and not to speak of the ergonomics ...
Your objection is alos quite right just the thought process has triggered the Rob was not so wrong.
Antwort von WoWu:
Perhaps for 2 postscripts:
@ Maik
The aperture is now circulating with 4 additional transistors in the CMOS resolved
@ Host
Mir goes thee domestic competition from 2K: Just for info: p + s is only the representation of Silicon Imaging is based in Costa Mesa, California
Antwort von felix75:
@ Wolfgang
The optics with the growing chips weitwinklig no longer so, so much cheaper in production, I have never considered ... Thank you for this inspiration;)
Why proprietary? One can "Direct-to-Edit AVI and Quicktime files, other than, for example, there Einzelblder from TIF. You can see the individual but as a sequence in the Tif NLE import. So we released the first of codecs and compression. With Final Cut Pro, for example, ProRes but super, right? Ich hab mal so Still Image of the site (second link) in Photoshop with Curves torn. I was astounded. It can be a HVX 200, despite not long 4:2:2 (of EX1 ka). I think size is often more important than a good Resolutionfür Post. Aperture is 12 + but many Dreichippern advance, or (rarely one finds ordinary data)?
PS: And the chip is as much the one I have not read 1 / 2 "but 1.2". So far over twice.
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Host
Thanks for the message .... I must say, however, was the data-höchstkomprimiert and I had only slightly decoding times.
But in principle, make such RAW Softwares, no preference, of whom they come, a variety of things with the signals. Also, the format that you've mentioned are encodings. With ProRes white man is not even, because Apple also makes no useful information. Presumably, it is but a derivative wavelet.
Sure, you can do everything, it always depends on what I then planned so. Is it then at the closing date I will be looking for other conditions as if I am then in a distribution hochkomprimierte go. Even if a tape format in between, I will have to choose other algorithms as if I do not leave the array. The world is not as unidimensional.
Another aspect is the GUI, the software provides me .. I work in the next free layers or where is the point where my RAW data is a product .... all this gives you no "normal" NLE, only the Camera (accessories) software. Next is the question, how did my hardware really ... Make my AD converter on 10bit ... or in accordance with the requirements of colleagues even 36 bit?
How, then I create a HW signal around .... All issues, but very specifically to deal with RAW apart.
Therefore, my approach was less synonymous as a "camera" out of RAW, but the benefits of the regular sensor to use.
And another difference: It is now much s.den CMOS pixels herumgerechnet (that is not negative, because successful) that I post in almost can not understand. RAW followers are in it, everything in the post, but until they are all tools in a super good quality (!!!), their camera probably already old. If anyone ever finds that for the few hundred Tools writes, then the synonymous nor affordable.
You see, there are many reasons terribly well on such a topic it.
Incidentally, you have the right with 1.2 "... A good reason is really closer to part with the company. Thanks for the hint.
I want so synonymous only say that it is extremely important to know where you are with the pictures and wants them to buy almost exclusively depend. E is in the future, both to ... Video for Film and Video for Video. Although even the Arri D20 says that it was only to supplement your portfolio and not a substitute for a film camera. Na we Schun times.
And what the information relates to ... because you're right, this is a gray and the companies are getting crazy with their spun marketing names. The information content is almost slipped to zero, the main thing is that you can in the minds of buyers arouse ideas. I have the EX1 yet synonymous difficult suspicion that the scan did not in 1920 is made ... but even then it would be pretty bad, because only one pixel pitch to be issued would 3y. That is why I think so synonymous the theoretical idea of such big-chip camera (but then for 2k) so seductive.
Only when we are next to talk about these issues, do I get the back of "practitioners" one s.die baking, neither film nor television but only interested in their HDV 2-core. Although I never really understood why they are such postings will actually read.
So guys: Sorry
Antwort von felix75:
Nevertheless, thanks for the reply. There are rarely people who seriously know!
Antwort von felix75:
My pleasure ..
Antwort von WoWu:
... I aaach Login ...
Antwort von schweizer gast:
I hope times the manufacturer of the times synonymous mpeg h.264 hype and get away (because this post-compression are unfit) and motion-jpg on set ... there would be a good image about 700 KB, the second can be any out
So my challenge:)
- Better compression
- Only 1080p/50
- Interchangeable lenses
- Better CCDs
Antwort von nomulus:
If you are at the same bitrate go to JPEG, you will be under warranty, the poorer quality, as in the JPEG standard, the quad-tree compression, the MPEG / AVC it "small," which is not provided.
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Swiss Traveler
How did you as the realization that H.264 editing unfit to be? If based on the observations of a few amateurs video is based, I recommend the reading of studies on this topic, the University of Rostock s.der were made and not confirmed.
How, then, are about your own experiences?
How you put in the subject because it H.264? Indeed, compared with JPEG, the procedure is really quite diverse with significant improvements brought about ...
Furthermore, it should not be forgotten, it is only a small percentage of video users, its synonymous cuts Programs. So why should the industry take it straight.
As your desire is probably "thought" to stay.
